manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
Bump MHB. I am interested in the answer and I reckon there may be a bunch of other people that are too.
Stepped Mashing Schedules By Style
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Bump MHB. I am interested in the answer and I reckon there may be a bunch of other people that are too.
Malted
Humdinger
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The schedule MHB listed does look interesting. Not quite the same and I am sure you would have seen this Manticle but maybe others have not: Zwickle compared a stepped mash to a single infusion and made some observations of the two resultant beers. http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/blog...hp?showentry=15
Had just tasted the Rouge Imperial Pilsner so was attempting something of a nod of the head in that direction, trying for a very high attenuation (got about 90% apparent) without resorting to adding sugar.
Knocked out at just over 1.100, pulled up just a touch over 1.010 for about 12% alcohol so the mash regime certainly yielded a very attenuateive wort, bittering and taste was all Tetnang to 75 IBU. Fermented with Wyeast Budvar 2000 (high pitching rate ~2.5*10^6/mL/P) finished off with Distinct a very neutral and highly attenuateive wine yeast.
Not really a beer I would (or could) drink in volume but an interesting challenge, getting pretty close to the theoretical limits of what you can do without using adjunct or kettle sugars.
If I brewed this again I would aim a little lower, say around 10 % alcohol, up the yeast pitch to around 4*10^6/mL/P and try to not use the finishing yeast, there was some hot alcohol taste; and no I wouldnt even think about trying to make this type of beer without step mashing.
M
Knocked out at just over 1.100, pulled up just a touch over 1.010 for about 12% alcohol so the mash regime certainly yielded a very attenuateive wort, bittering and taste was all Tetnang to 75 IBU. Fermented with Wyeast Budvar 2000 (high pitching rate ~2.5*10^6/mL/P) finished off with Distinct a very neutral and highly attenuateive wine yeast.
Not really a beer I would (or could) drink in volume but an interesting challenge, getting pretty close to the theoretical limits of what you can do without using adjunct or kettle sugars.
If I brewed this again I would aim a little lower, say around 10 % alcohol, up the yeast pitch to around 4*10^6/mL/P and try to not use the finishing yeast, there was some hot alcohol taste; and no I wouldnt even think about trying to make this type of beer without step mashing.
M
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
Interesting. 75 IBu pils with all tett sounds pretty nuts.
What was the body and mouthfeel like (obviously a dry finish and the hot alc might interfere with perception but did it seem like there was some contribution from dextrins to pull away from thin, dry and winey)?
What was the body and mouthfeel like (obviously a dry finish and the hot alc might interfere with perception but did it seem like there was some contribution from dextrins to pull away from thin, dry and winey)?
Well if it helps you get your head around it, think of it as a Lager barley wine, just couldnt find a Lager yeast that I thought would go all the way, Distinct is basically flavourless, cleaner than Champagne, I didnt want any Belgian notes so not a lot of choices really. When the lager choked at about 9.5% I brought the temperature up to 20oC and added the Distinct. The Rogue was all Sterling not having any of that and a shed load of Tetnang... well the beer was spicy, but can you have too much Tetnang?
In truth it was a bit over hoped, I had thought it would pull up closer to 1.020 than 1.010 and it was balanced accordingly, surprisingly full bodied for the FG, not exactly a thirst quencher but a long way from being cloying.
On the whole I was fairly happy with the beer, remembering that it was primarily an exercise in testing the mash regime. The slight hot alcohol flavour was probably from under pitching.
Besides whats wrong with 75 IBU in a 12% Lager wine, once you learn that pint mugs might not be the way to go.
M
In truth it was a bit over hoped, I had thought it would pull up closer to 1.020 than 1.010 and it was balanced accordingly, surprisingly full bodied for the FG, not exactly a thirst quencher but a long way from being cloying.
On the whole I was fairly happy with the beer, remembering that it was primarily an exercise in testing the mash regime. The slight hot alcohol flavour was probably from under pitching.
Besides whats wrong with 75 IBU in a 12% Lager wine, once you learn that pint mugs might not be the way to go.
M
Malted
Humdinger
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Thank you Mark for sharing your information and thoughts about your Larger Lager. I too would have expected 75 IBU to balance quite nicely against a FG of 1.020 and perhaps a bitterness ratio IBU/SG of 0.75 - certainly not out of the ballpark for a lager (barley) wine. Sounds like you had an interesting trial that you have learnt from.
So your final attenuation was 90%?
Can you actually pin the high attenuation on the mash schedule, or the wine yeast? Do you know how far Distinct could go in a wort from a differing mash schedule? Or likewise, how far have you had Budvar go in other worts with different mash schedules- 9.5% alc/vol does sound like it maxed it's potential ability before you added the Distinct?
I did an American Barley wine in which I went for a 97.5 IBU, OG 1.081 and FG 1.014 for an intended IBU/SG of 1.204, with San Diego Super Yeast (potential max attenuation of 83% - actual was pretty close and maybe at approx 82.75% - it finished 2 points below the Beersmith prediction). The mash schedule was 55oC - 5 mins, 62 - 15, 68 - 45, 72 - 10, 78 - 10. I did this a while ago, I am not sure about this mash schedule now. I don't think it would have been a highly fermentable mash schedule, if anything more of a balanced beta/alpha. It was the first time I have used the super yeast, I am looking forward to trying it on some other brews.
Have been working on a couple of parallel brews based on the original Josef Groll 1842 Pilsner.
Being a Braumeister brewer I am trying to get as close to the original as possible and have had a play with the mash regime, one brew will be the full decoction, the other a Programmed Infusion conducted on the Braumeister.
The aim of the exercise being to use exactly the same Grist, Hopping and Fermentation profiles and compare the brews.
Given that there is a significant difference between the Decocted and Programmed brews; looking at the Decoction profile, the obvious step would be to do a hybrid brew, put the malt in the Braumeister recirculate for 30 minutes, pause, take out 1/3 of the grist and water, heat to a boil for 10 minutes, return to Braumeister and start the programme.
Having had a bit of two and fro with Manticle on this question recently; made me go and work through that is happening in the decoction. I think that if you are going to do a hybrid, doing the decoction from mash in would have a lot more effect on the flavour of the finished beer than doing one at the end. Key being not to heat too quickly and if at all possible to do the pauses at 65 and 72 as in the original.
The following is from the Almanac and we intend to follow it exactly.
View attachment 52299View attachment 52298
The excel spreadsheet is just my working.
View attachment Triple_Decoction.xlsx
Cheers Mark
Being a Braumeister brewer I am trying to get as close to the original as possible and have had a play with the mash regime, one brew will be the full decoction, the other a Programmed Infusion conducted on the Braumeister.
The aim of the exercise being to use exactly the same Grist, Hopping and Fermentation profiles and compare the brews.
Given that there is a significant difference between the Decocted and Programmed brews; looking at the Decoction profile, the obvious step would be to do a hybrid brew, put the malt in the Braumeister recirculate for 30 minutes, pause, take out 1/3 of the grist and water, heat to a boil for 10 minutes, return to Braumeister and start the programme.
Having had a bit of two and fro with Manticle on this question recently; made me go and work through that is happening in the decoction. I think that if you are going to do a hybrid, doing the decoction from mash in would have a lot more effect on the flavour of the finished beer than doing one at the end. Key being not to heat too quickly and if at all possible to do the pauses at 65 and 72 as in the original.
The following is from the Almanac and we intend to follow it exactly.
View attachment 52299View attachment 52298
The excel spreadsheet is just my working.
View attachment Triple_Decoction.xlsx
Cheers Mark
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
Absolutely agreed.
Doing a double decoction today with a Belgian ******* (my grand cru thingamajig) that includes 6 steps from b-glacanse to mash out.
First decoction will be pulled after the main mash has rested at 62 for 10 minutes and will slowly be brought up to the boil and added back for glyco-protein. Second will most likely be pulled at high sacch rest or glyco protein and added back for mash out.
Thanks for sharing that recipe/method. Aiming for a triple decocted floor malted 100% pils this coming winter so I will be referring to that document.
Nick JD
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Just MHO, but I reckon the non-floor malted Wey Boh Pils makes a much nicer Boh Pils. I bought my last sack of the FM stuff.
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
I might try both.
Last FM I used I got a (not unpleasant) sweet corn character that I believe, from reading Fix, to be related to certain melanoiden characters rather than DMS.
Would be good to do a side by side.
Last FM I used I got a (not unpleasant) sweet corn character that I believe, from reading Fix, to be related to certain melanoiden characters rather than DMS.
Would be good to do a side by side.
Nick JD
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A side by side would be a great idea.
I've been getting rid of my FM Boh Pils in Saisons and IPAs (where it can't really be noticed) and in Pilsners using it at less than half the base - german pils the rest. It's a bit too funky for me.
The non-FM stuff is wonderful. Gives that "urquell" graininess/earthiness that goes so well with saaz.
Maybe I just got a sack from the back corner of the floor where the rats live? I wonder how consistent the FM process is compared to the modern malting process?
EDIT: what's "Fix"? Interesting to hear the "baby corn husks" things is melanoidin-based.
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
Principles of brewing science, George Fix. A longer boil will actually develop the character. Described as sweet corn by him and different the vegetal canned corn of DMS.
Nick JD
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My high-gravity (1.065-1.075) boils are probably accentuating it too.
Finally got the HERMS running smoothly again and doing a Step Mash inspired by this thread for a Landlord-esque ESB
Possibly overkill with the 50/58 rests but WTH, thought I might as well, a fairly simple grain bill might benefit.
Sitting indoors clicking buttons on the BCS while the good ship HMAS HERMS does her thing in the backyard.
Click mashing.
10 min 50C rest
10 min 58C rest
10 min 63C rest
40 min 67C rest
10 min 72C rest
ramp to mashout 77C
5kg Pale (Pearle) 88.5%
0.5kg Crystal Medium 8.8%
0.1kg Flaked Wheat 1.8%
0.05kg Black Malt 0.9% (in at Mashout ramp - just for colour)
Fuggles 60g - 60 min
Goldings 40g - 20 min
Styrian 45g - flameout
Possibly overkill with the 50/58 rests but WTH, thought I might as well, a fairly simple grain bill might benefit.
Sitting indoors clicking buttons on the BCS while the good ship HMAS HERMS does her thing in the backyard.
Click mashing.
10 min 50C rest
10 min 58C rest
10 min 63C rest
40 min 67C rest
10 min 72C rest
ramp to mashout 77C
5kg Pale (Pearle) 88.5%
0.5kg Crystal Medium 8.8%
0.1kg Flaked Wheat 1.8%
0.05kg Black Malt 0.9% (in at Mashout ramp - just for colour)
Fuggles 60g - 60 min
Goldings 40g - 20 min
Styrian 45g - flameout
fraser_john
Go Pies
For those brewers with Promash I have created four mash programs for using Mash Designer.
These are the ones I have programmed into my Auberins step/ramp controller, it has 30 program steps and will fit four programs handily!
JPG Graphs for each one shown as well.
NOTE : Remove the .txt suffix from the file, it was the only way I could upload it by adding the .txt
View attachment PID___Dry_Ale.msh.txt
View attachment PID___Dry_PILS.msh.txt
View attachment PID___PILS.msh.txt
View attachment PID___Weizen.msh.txt
These are the ones I have programmed into my Auberins step/ramp controller, it has 30 program steps and will fit four programs handily!
JPG Graphs for each one shown as well.
NOTE : Remove the .txt suffix from the file, it was the only way I could upload it by adding the .txt
View attachment PID___Dry_Ale.msh.txt
View attachment PID___Dry_PILS.msh.txt
View attachment PID___PILS.msh.txt
View attachment PID___Weizen.msh.txt
fraser_john
Go Pies
Cocko
Oh Dear..
FJ,
Can I ask you why all your ramp times have become 1 ? I have been basing my programming on your own SS from a while ago that users actual ramp times....
Is it because you have your HY settings sorted, and that it won't start the next step temp is reached until you reach temp any way?
Many thanks!
