2007 NSW Comp Politics thread ;)

[PostModern]

Interesting choice of title PoMo.
I came in here expecting to see a detailed analysis of Labors chances of picking up Howards battlers seats in a few weeks

OK. Fixed.

 

[///]

I take the pages of dialog about the comps as an example of folks seeking for perfection in a process that is inherantly flawed. Beer judging is subjective to a degree, and whilst you use a number of tools to limit this, subjectivity affects the outcome.

I was a participant a few weeks ago at a Pro Comp where we were sat down and given an open ended title of 'Lager', 'Pale Ale', 'Wheat' etc with no reference or style guidlines etc. Parameters such as Clarity, Aroma, Flavour, Body and Drinkability were the acessment points.

Within a majority of cases, after considered reflection and some discussion, all judges came close on most beers. The winners were unanimous and on one panel we got thru 36 beers in about an hour.

So whilst this is similar to the wine style of judging, I liked the aspect of having a number of beers to compare against compared to the isolation of the current popular format. On reflection the individual pursuit of the BJCP and such methods is laborious and somewhat boring. The facility we used a few weeks ago was quick, easy and allowed a quick session to allow maximum time spent at the bar gas bagging. I think time spent at the bar exceeded time spent judging .....

Anyways, with no real point I must exit stage left.

Scotty

 

[AndrewQLD]

Scotty, that sounds suspiciously similar to the old style of Homebrew comps run by most Local agricultural shows.
Categories consisted of
Lager, dark Ale, Pale Ale, Stout and ginger beer, with no Styles as such, the main judging points being aroma clarity ect and the main catch cry for a good beer was "I'd drink that no problems" perfect score :lol: .

Judging to the BJCP style guidelines can indeed be very laborious and time consuming.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Ross]

On reflection the individual pursuit of the BJCP and such methods is laborious and somewhat boring. The facility we used a few weeks ago was quick, easy and allowed a quick session to allow maximum time spent at the bar gas bagging. I think time spent at the bar exceeded time spent judging .....

Anyways, with no real point I must exit stage left.

Scotty

Scotty, are you referring to the NSW AABC qualifing comp here or another one?

Cheers Ross

 

[///]

Nope, this was a professional comp held a few weeks ago, nothing to do with AABC as was playing removalist. It was very similar to the wine style judging method, but we did look at the 4 critical points required and consider the technical aspects of the beer.

Combined there would have been over 30 years professional experience around the table. The lead judge for our panel ran things very closely as he would have at his major brewery; from foam appearance and structure, clarity, malt profile and flavour, bitterness profile and perception, balance and structure etc etc.

The judgment on best beer for me was which one I would buy a 6 pack of. Buying beer is a novelty ...

What I did like was having a number of samples to taste and compare rather than in isolation. This allowed you to consider different hop profiles quickly, esters and malt flavour etc etc...

Anyways, it was just another way to skin a cat.

Scotty

 

[Trent]

Scotty, are you referring to the NSW AABC qualifing comp here or another one?

Cheers Ross

Good one, Scotty
Now we are gonna have to get this thread split into another splinter debating judging styles, and style guidelines, etc... :lol:
I certainly enjoy judging, but if I could get through 30 beers in an hour then head to the bar, I am all for it! I need to know more about this process, will you teach me?!
Mind you, I don't think it will be conducive to providing good feedback to the brewers, as I saw a commercial judging sheet once that had all the room for the comments and looked like this
Aroma -
Appearance - Yep
Flavour -
Mouthfell -
Overall Impression - Nice
38/50

At the end of the day, though, more bar time is still a great thing. Maybe we can do a comp like that next year - the "no feedback comp". And dont laugh, I reckon it could be fun! Though probably not beneficial to anyone but the winners.
Trent

 

[Gerard_M]

On reflection the individual pursuit of the BJCP and such methods is laborious and somewhat boring.
Scotty

Well I can not recall the last time this happened, but I must agree with Scott Morgan! Never thought that would ever happen <_<

On to the pro's vs amateur debate. I made my original point based on personal experience. When I first started brewing at Paddy's in 2004 I natuarally thought that by brewing in a commercial brewery, & copping a pay cheque, that I would have to exclude myself from taking part in home-brew comps as I had lost my "amateur status". No drama for me, I couldn't give a rats either way. This was a pretty easy decission for me because I had previously played quite alot of golf, & had played in amateur golf tournaments. As an amateur I could play in what was an "open" event, open to both amateurs & pro's. If I had turned pro I would not have been able to play in the amateur event anymore. (I would also have no been able to afford to eat)

I basically look at the situation with brew comps in the same way.

Cheers
Gerard

 

[Trent]

Gday
I would have to disagree with the references to golf that seem to keep on popping up, as to me, it is quite a different thing.
To succeed as a pro golfer, you need to have talent - a talent that many people do not have. You can look at how many hours that people spend on the golf course, and/or taking lessons, etc... and never even approach that level. SO, what you are all saying is that people that are professional brewers were born with that talent, and no amount of training or coaching can make "normal" brewers that good? To me, put any old fool in a pro brewery, teach him the ropes, and he will be able to put out commercial quality beer - not always good, but we know that not all commercial beer is good. Brewing is about doing certain things, in a certain order, nothing to do with hand/eye co-ordination or things like that. Yes, there is an inherent talent in there, but you dont NEED it to be a pro brewer.
If you ask me, I have no problems competing with pro brewers, as if they are making beer at home on their 25L system, an old esky with a braided manifold, using gravity, and shaking the carboys to aerate (or however you choose to do it at your place) then they are on a level playing field in my eyes. Just because Sierra Nevada puts out the recipe to their Pale Ale on their website, doesnt mean that one of us can replicate it that well at home, nor does it mean we cannot. It all comes down to technique and knowing your system, and no matter how well we know our home system, I dont think that there is the same level of repeatability as there is in a commercial set-up. Besides, we are always brewing on our home set-up, so when the pro's are brewing that comp beer on the system they rarely use, we have the upper hand.
If you give 49 regular brewers and 1 professional brewer a recipe, and tell them to make it AT HOME, in their esky mash tun and 50L kettle, can you tell me for sure that the professional brewer is going to make the best beer? Hell, give em 10 different beers, and you STILL dont have the guarantee the pro brewer will win any of those 10 categories - he may, but most likely not (especially if Barry is one of the 49 :lol.
Conversely, give 49 regular golfers and Tiger Woods 10 rounds on St Andrews, and I know who will win at least 9 out of the 10 rounds.
At the end of the day, most pro brewers dont wanna enter amateur comps. If they do, good on em - they may be after feedback for an upcoming seasonal, or just interested to see how they go.
And for those of you who are against it, just try and think how many times you have thought to yourself "this is better than most of the stuff available commercially". Just cause ya dont do it for a living, doesn't mean you are not as good as those that do.
Sorry for the rant, it certainly wasnt intended to sound that way Just that I am much more worried about competing against passionate homebrewers than pro's.
All the best
Trent
EDIT - needed to put the last : on the laugh symbol

 

[Ross]

Gday
I would have to disagree with the references to golf that seem to keep on popping up, as to me, it is quite a different thing.
To succeed as a pro golfer, you need to have talent - a talent that many people do not have. You can look at how many hours that people spend on the golf course, and/or taking lessons, etc... and never even approach that level. SO, what you are all saying is that people that are professional brewers were born with that talent, and no amount of training or coaching can make "normal" brewers that good? To me, put any old fool in a pro brewery, teach him the ropes, and he will be able to put out commercial quality beer - not always good, but we know that not all commercial beer is good. Brewing is about doing certain things, in a certain order, nothing to do with hand/eye co-ordination or things like that. Yes, there is an inherent talent in there, but you dont NEED it to be a pro brewer.
If you ask me, I have no problems competing with pro brewers, as if they are making beer at home on their 25L system, an old esky with a braided manifold, using gravity, and shaking the carboys to aerate (or however you choose to do it at your place) then they are on a level playing field in my eyes. Just because Sierra Nevada puts out the recipe to their Pale Ale on their website, doesnt mean that one of us can replicate it that well at home, nor does it mean we cannot. It all comes down to technique and knowing your system, and no matter how well we know our home system, I dont think that there is the same level of repeatability as there is in a commercial set-up. Besides, we are always brewing on our home set-up, so when the pro's are brewing that comp beer on the system they rarely use, we have the upper hand.
If you give 49 regular brewers and 1 professional brewer a recipe, and tell them to make it AT HOME, in their esky mash tun and 50L kettle, can you tell me for sure that the professional brewer is going to make the best beer? Hell, give em 10 different beers, and you STILL dont have the guarantee the pro brewer will win any of those 10 categories - he may, but most likely not (especially if Barry is one of the 49)
Conversely, give 49 regular golfers and Tiger Woods 10 rounds on St Andrews, and I know who will win at least 9 out of the 10 rounds.
At the end of the day, most pro brewers dont wanna enter amateur comps. If they do, good on em - they may be after feedback for an upcoming seasonal, or just interested to see how they go.
And for those of you who are against it, just try and think how many times you have thought to yourself "this is better than most of the stuff available commercially". Just cause ya dont do it for a living, doesn't mean you are not as good as those that do.
Sorry for the rant, it certainly wasnt intended to sound that way Just that I am much more worried about competing against passionate homebrewers than pro's.
All the best
Trent
EDIT - needed to put the last : on the laugh symbol

No rant that I can see - plus agree 100%
I'd love to see some more "pro" brewers entering comps, it's the competing that's fun & the more "big" names you have a chance of beating the better B)
As others have said though, i can't see many proffesional brewers prepared to have their beers put up against the amateurs - Would make a good comp though possibly, the best 1 or 2 brewers from every state together, up against an equal quantity of pro brewers for the PRO/AM Cup :icon_chickcheers:


Cheers Ross

 

[Darren]

Nothing wrong with a pro-brewer entering, so long as the beer was made at home.

cheers

Darren

 

[Darren]

Absolutely- unless specifc permission is given to release names - dont.
From memory the BJCP form has a space to provide a ranking for each entry. We also need to be mindful that it will hardly be encouraging new entrants into competitions if they believe their 'failures " will be exposed to all and sundry.

University's have only published results by student number for years now for these exact reasons. Maybe assigning every entrant a number so they can see how they went against others. Easy enough to reveal your number to your mates if you wish.

BTW: I still get a ribbing about my 10/50 for my cherry lambic

cheers

Darren

 

[MHB]

Why dont one of the entrants create a table showing the bottle numbers and scores, then post it.

If anyone wants to they can copy the table - put their name in next to the bottle number and score - a bit like the ever copied and reposted list we every case swap.

Those that want to can; everyone else can remain anonymous.

MHB

 

[Tony]

Scotty, that sounds suspiciously similar to the old style of Homebrew comps run by most Local agricultural shows.
Categories consisted of
Lager, dark Ale, Pale Ale, Stout and ginger beer, with no Styles as such, the main judging points being aroma clarity ect and the main catch cry for a good beer was "I'd drink that no problems" perfect score .
Cheers
Andrew

I remember entering a comp in tamworth and they had a "draught" catagory. I asked how they were going to get everyone to drag their kegs in and hook them up and they looked at me all confused. I expalained to them what draught beer was and they told me......."NO...... draught...... while holding up a can of coopers draught" I will never forget that. I entered my aussie pale ale "draught" and got 1st place and won a $50 voucher that bought me a wheelbarrow. :icon_offtopic:

No rant that I can see - plus agree 100%
I'd love to see some more "pro" brewers entering comps, it's the competing that's fun & the more "big" names you have a chance of beating the better
As others have said though, i can't see many proffesional brewers prepared to have their beers put up against the amateurs - Would make a good comp though possibly, the best 1 or 2 brewers from every state together, up against an equal quantity of pro brewers for the PRO/AM Cup
Cheers Ross

Now that would be fun!

University's have only published results by student number for years now for these exact reasons. Maybe assigning every entrant a number so they can see how they went against others. Easy enough to reveal your number to your mates if you wish.

BTW: I still get a ribbing about my 10/50 for my cherry lambic
cheers

Darren

did you no chill that lambic darren. do you know it could have got infected.....maybe thats why it was judged down :lol:

cheers

 

[bigfridge]

University's have only published results by student number for years now for these exact reasons. Maybe assigning every entrant a number so they can see how they went against others. Easy enough to reveal your number to your mates if you wish.

BTW: I still get a ribbing about my 10/50 for my cherry lambic

cheers

Darren

Darren,

I wonder at times if anyone actually reads what is written in a thread before they comment or argue.

I posted at the beginning that NSW has done this for years. You can see last years results here. The 2005 results are also available.

 

[Linz]

Scotty, that sounds suspiciously similar to the old style of Homebrew comps run by most Local agricultural shows.
Categories consisted of
Lager, dark Ale, Pale Ale, Stout and ginger beer, with no Styles as such, the main judging points being aroma clarity ect and the main catch cry for a good beer was "I'd drink that no problems" perfect score :lol: .

Judging to the BJCP style guidelines can indeed be very laborious and time consuming.

Cheers
Andrew

But Pro brewers aren't looking for feedback to 'improve' their techniques or ingredient choices

Home brewers are; and thats where BJCP assists.

The other method does nothing but give bragging rights if you manage to pull off the top gong(see Marketing dept get spending increase!)

 

[///]

But Pro brewers aren't looking for feedback to 'improve' their techniques or ingredient choices

Home brewers are; and thats where BJCP assists.

The other method does nothing but give bragging rights if you manage to pull off the top gong(see Marketing dept get spending increase!)

Well this fella has wanted more feedback from the Pro comps entered, and this perhaps is where the timber begins to splinter. A few weeks ago it was a numbers game and thats tops for the process of getting thru the work and an award to slot into a press release. But for the HB side, part of the nicety is getting back the notes and having a look thru comments when the score sheets are received.

So, are we looking at getting thru the work with tight parameters quickly of specific detail or are we looking to provide a service to the entrants relating to their entries and the quality of the work done. And i think that might be where the answer lies, when the 'money shot' is demanded ...

And speaking of shots, cheers to Gerard, reckon i'd also rather be chasing a little white ball than judging beer ... as there is always a beer at the end of golf but seldom golf at the end of a beer comp...

Scotty

 

[Trough Lolly]

<<snip>>
But for the HB side, part of the nicety is getting back the notes and having a look thru comments when the score sheets are received.
<<snip>>

Couldn't agree more!
Years ago I entered my first comp....never got a score sheet...never heard anything.

...haven't entered a comp since.