2007 NSW Comp Politics thread ;)

[Tony]

ahahahaha i honestly thought you were joking.. i would be amazed if that ever happened. man, though if you cant think quick enough on your feet if a "employer" sternly asked about your 2nd last in the 2004 pale ale category ( umm i entered a dopplebock by mistake?) you probably dont deserve the job. :lol:

i agree with ray, even though most probably dont care, there may be one or two that do and its not worth it.

I made a slightly more smartarsed comment saying the same thing and got moderated...... but thats fair enough. If you cant make a good beer maybe you shouldnt be brewing comercially. If i go for a job, they ring up all my previous enployers and ask questions. If i was a dud...... i wont get the job. thats how it works.

Not one person has said they mind but not everyone has had their say so in the rules of fairness we will leave it at that.

Just a point to spark another aggument.... maybe another tick box could be put next to the one asking if you allow your recipe details to be published to ask if you let your mane and placing details to be published for public view. If you say no....... your name is left blank on the publishing?

just an idea

cheers

 

[schooey]

Gerard,

I'm a home-brewer now employed as a professional brewer.

I entered the NSW home-brew comp because on my days off I brew at home (much to the amusement of my boss). I brew at home because it's my passion, it's my recreation, it's how I relax, it's my idea of fun.

I sometimes enter beers in competitions because I love the process, taste testing my beer, assessing how they compare with style guidelines, the anticipation, the success, the failure, the feedback - I love it all.

I have helped organise competitions and judge at competitions because I feel like part of the community. I love contributing. And I love the satisfaction of seeing a job well done for my friends, peers and other beer enthusiasts.

I think of myself as a brewer first, be it using my midget 20 L mash tun at home or the relatively small 6 HL system at work; I'm proud of the beer of the beer I make and it doesn't make a difference to me whether I am serving at home from a corny keg or it's being poured by a bar staff member at work.

Homebrewing and homebrewers are a big part of my life and I wouldn't want it any other way.

This is why, while being employed as a professional brewer, I enter home-brew comps.

I am not the only one in this situation, many people now in the industry came to it through an enthusiasm for homebrewing, which is why, after much debate, before my involvement, the rules of the AABC (Rule D3) were clarified to distinguish between commercial brews and amateur brews.

Keith
NSW AABC delegate

Just 2 bobs worth from a noob here, but anyway..

I don't see a problem with someone from the industry being able to enter if they are brewing home brew the same way you and I could if we went to the trouble of acquiring the same home brew equipment they have. I think there is more value to be gained from their knowledge and feedback for me personally, but then again I have a lot to learn. For me, turning them away can only be a bad thing for the hobby...

But that's just me.

Plus, think of the satisfaction and pride you'd have if you brewed a beer in the same category that was judged better than theirs, and I imagine plenty have

 

[capretta]

maybe another tick box could be put next to the one asking if you allow your recipe details to be published to ask if you let your mane and placing details to be published for public view. If you say no....... your name is left blank on the publishing?

just an idea

cheers

not a bad idea..
minimum work load for organisers, an extra line in the excel sheet.

 

[PostModern]

Just 2 bobs worth from a noob here, but anyway..

I don't see a problem with someone from the industry being able to enter if they are brewing home brew the same way you and I could if we went to the trouble of acquiring the same home brew equipment they have. I think there is more value to be gained from their knowledge and feedback for me personally, but then again I have a lot to learn. For me, turning them away can only be a bad thing for the hobby...

But that's just me.

Plus, think of the satisfaction and pride you'd have if you brewed a beer in the same category that was judged better than theirs, and I imagine plenty have

OK, so what happens when the prestige of the event is so great, that it attracts not only the Keith's but also the Lukes, David Hollyoaks, Tim Thomases, Scott Morgans, Gerard Meares, and what's the name of the guy from Murrays? So ten of the top micro-brewers in NSW enter the comp and at least three of them perform well in each category. Yay amateur brew comp!!!!!

 

[Fatgodzilla]

OK, so what happens when the prestige of the event is so great, that it attracts not only the Keith's but also the Lukes, David Hollyoaks, Tim Thomases, Scott Morgans, Gerard Meares, and what's the name of the guy from Murrays? So ten of the top micro-brewers in NSW enter the comp and at least three of them perform well in each category. Yay amateur brew comp!!!!!

I think you may be drawing a fairly long bow there PoMo. With all due respect, the prestige of the events must dramatically increase before your scenario becomes relevant. As long as the criteria for entering is the same for all - "home fermentation" (and I like your idea of taking the beer from grain through to output - let kits, extracts and wort kits be classified differently) and the inability to use "commercial output devices" to make a "home brew" then the pros have as much right to enter. It will be their reputation and possibly egos that suffer when they get beaten by an amateur. And they will - after all, haven't we all tasted some poor craft brews !!

Think also that there are different levels of amateur knowledge out there. Your knowledge of brewing is much better than mine and I guess there are brewers whose knowledge exceeds yours. There are also people with far more time and far better equipment than others who also have an advantage over others. Someone always has an edge. It is a bit like another conversation last week about Moto GP. In a perfect world, all bikes and equipment should be the same then let the best rider win. But reality is, no, its the full deal that wins the championship - equipment and rider.

We are lucky in home brewing that it is not necessarily the equipment that make the beer. Its the dill using the equipment that counts. And factors external to the dill - the sun, the stars, the moon,the missus, the kids, the quality of your ingredients etc that will also affect the result.

Set the criteria, set the styles, come down heavily on those who breach them.

Lastly, I still cannot get over the whinging by people over the styles judged. What I feel is a better competition is give the competitors the exact same ingredient list to choose from and then the desired outcome. He / she who produces the best outcome wins a brewing judged award. If you want a competition where you can enter ANY beer into a non catagorised competition to simply find a Best of Show, stage a different competition.

 

[PostModern]

I think you may be drawing a fairly long bow there PoMo. With all due respect, the prestige of the events must dramatically increase before your scenario becomes relevant. As long as the criteria for entering is the same for all - "home fermentation" (and I like your idea of taking the beer from grain through to output - let kits, extracts and wort kits be classified differently) and the inability to use "commercial output devices" to make a "home brew" then the pros have as much right to enter. It will be their reputation and possibly egos that suffer when they get beaten by an amateur. And they will - after all, haven't we all tasted some poor craft brews !!

It might be a long bow, admittedly, but to mix metaphors, the door is left open. I'm sure professional brewers would rather keep their competition to things like the AIBA, but most craft brewers I know are passionate homebrewers as well. Here's an analogy: Pro golfers entering an amateur competion. "But it's OK, they're not using their Tour clubs, shoes or balls." Sure, why would they bother, tho.

 

[newguy]

It's been my experience that pretty much all pro brewers around here want absolutely nothing to do with amateur competitions. It may be that they're afraid of what amateur judges (i.e. BJCP) would find in their beers, or that a rank amateur beats them. All I know is that we amateurs have our competitions, and the pros have theirs. In my opinion, this is how it should be.

FWIW, even the pro competitions only name the top beers in each category. They never break down the order in which each and every entrant placed.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

It might be a long bow, admittedly, but to mix metaphors, the door is left open. I'm sure professional brewers would rather keep their competition to things like the AIBA, but most craft brewers I know are passionate homebrewers as well. Here's an analogy: Pro golfers entering an amateur competion. "But it's OK, they're not using their Tour clubs, shoes or balls." Sure, why would they bother, tho.

But they do have golfing pro-ams. Most amateur competitions have handicaps to "balance" the contest. As said, make sure that they cannot use commercial advantage and they use the same equipment and ingredients and these professional brewers are pretty much at the same level as everyone else. Most commercial brands are more about science than brewing ! The professional who will go in a home brewing are likely those who came from homebrewing or are really just a step above the best amateurs.

And as Newguy says, pros don't tend to go in amateur stuff anyway. It's hard enough to get the amateurs !!!

I know what you are saying and I defend your right to say it. But who's right ?? Everyone.

Opinions. They are like noses. Everyone has one.

 

[///]

It's been my experience that pretty much all pro brewers around here want absolutely nothing to do with amateur competitions.

Well not so here, until moving house got in the way of this last weekend in NSW the professionals are usually in support via the way of organizing or participating as judges. Afterall, a large part of any Micro Brewers market is beer enthusiasts including home brewers.

As well Bitter and Twisted is a Pro Am event...

Whilst my name was listed above, I did not see anyone claiming dibs over Barry Cranston and offering him a job to come to the 'sometimes paid' side of the force. So I bag first dib's on Barry and extend my offer to hom to join the team of bad jokes and broken wind .... on the South Coast

And Fatzilla, i still use the same crappy plastic buckets as I did 10 years ago, i wonder if I was a pavlovian dog what I would do?

Scotty

 

[bigfridge]

FWIW, even the pro competitions only name the top beers in each category. They never break down the order in which each and every entrant placed.

There is one thing that everyone seems to have been forgotten during this extended thread hijack.

The current NSW Brewing Championship organiser (ie Ray) and the previous organiser (ie me) have clearly and repeatedly stated that NSW have never, and does not intend to now publish non-placegetter names. It is just the way that we run our comps in NSW.

But thanks for all the advice given. Perhaps a future organising committee will adopt your recommendations, but until then it looks like that is the way that it is in NSW. If people want their names published they are free to enter other competitions.

 

[newguy]

Well not so here, until moving house got in the way of this last weekend in NSW the professionals are usually in support via the way of organizing or participating as judges. Afterall, a large part of any Micro Brewers market is beer enthusiasts including home brewers.

I should have been more specific. We have some small & mid-sized breweries who support our competitions by sending loot for prizes, and occasionally their employees will serve as judges. What I meant was that they'd never considering entering their beers against the beers we amateurs brew. Besides, every competition I've been involved with (either as an entrant or as a judge) has stated very clearly that only beers brewed at home, not in a commercial establishment, were eligible.

Quite a few years ago, I was invited to help judge at a small commercial competition held in conjunction with a weekend beer festival. I was invited to participate because the organizer wanted the....legitimacy?....of having a BJCP judge in his competition. The commercial brewers almost pulled out of the festival because of this. They did not want an amateur evaluating their beers at all.

 

[kabooby]

It might be a long bow, admittedly, but to mix metaphors, the door is left open. I'm sure professional brewers would rather keep their competition to things like the AIBA, but most craft brewers I know are passionate homebrewers as well. Here's an analogy: Pro golfers entering an amateur competion. "But it's OK, they're not using their Tour clubs, shoes or balls." Sure, why would they bother, tho.

Good analogy Pomo

Would it be to simple that if you didnt want your name posted to enter under an Alias name

I have a freind that plays golf comp on Fridays and has a different name down. That way if he wins the comp and his name is in the paper his boss wont spot it :lol:

Just my 2c worth

Kabooby

 

[Fatgodzilla]

..."And Fatzilla, i still use the same crappy plastic buckets as I did 10 years ago, i wonder if I was a pavlovian dog what I would do?
Scotty "

as long as you don't salivate over us when we ring the bell ...................

Like I said, you follow the same rules as everyone else, you're in. I'll let Chuck Hahn in if he used brewed under the same conditions as anyone else. We don't all have the same knowledge, but i reckon that is not necessary at this level of competition. It's for fun, aint it ??? :huh:

And if NSW says we don't publish names and results, then I happy to that. The winners will soon let you know about their wins.

 

[AndrewQLD]

There is one thing that everyone seems to have been forgotten during this extended thread hijack.

The current NSW Brewing Championship organiser (ie Ray) and the previous organiser (ie me) have clearly and repeatedly stated that NSW have never, and does not intend to now publish non-placegetter names. It is just the way that we run our comps in NSW.

But thanks for all the advice given. Perhaps a future organising committee will adopt your recommendations, but until then it looks like that is the way that it is in NSW. If people want their names published they are free to enter other competitions.
/// Posted Today, 11:08 AM

Then perhaps you shouldn't have hijacked the thread in the first place

Good question Paul.

There would have been many more judges and stewards available except that they were involved in the new Bitter & Twisted competition.

Many of the NSW brewers have become dismayed with the National bodies approach to running competitions. The main problems that we see are:

- restrictive styles (ie there are many beers that are just not included)
- lack of a calibration beer so that all judges are judging to the same standards
- Lack of Best of Show round so that all category winners are fairly treated.
- lack of integration with international brewing standards and competitions ie if you win a category at the AABC there is nowhere to go - there is no support for a National 'team' to compete on the international stage.
David

But I do agree with what your saying, it's a NSW competition and if they decide not to list full results then it is up to their organisers and theirs alone. Anyone who does not agree should get on the committee and make some changes through the correct chanels.
There is nothing worse in my opinion than finding fault with someone or some group who has sacrificed many hours, and I do mean sacraficed, to the benefit of a lot of people. I can guarantee that most of the people who donate their time to these competitions find it extremely disheartening/depressing when negative comments are posted on forums such as this.

We really need to look at the positives, there is always something that can be improved in these competitions but you will find that over time it happens.

Having said all that I think I should apologise to David and also Ray and the rest of the NSW committee if any of my comments caused offence and contributed to the thread hijack.

It might be good if one of the Mods, PoMo? could clean this thread up a bit and return it to The "Results NSW 2007 homebrewing competition" format it should be.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[warrenlw63]

:lol: Not sure why the NSW pushes up past 6-7 pages. Did the same thing last year.

All the other states were lucky if they pushed past 3 pages each.

You blokes sure do take your comp-related politics seriously.

Mods feel free to kill this post if you wish. Just speaking my mind.

Warren -

 

[PostModern]

OK guys, split from the Results thread. Go for it

 

[Steve Lacey]

And if NSW says we don't publish names and results, then I happy to that. The winners will soon let you know about their wins.

Keep your head down and eye on the ball, son. The place-getters are published. The conversation is about the publication of the names and scores of non place-getters.

I have to also continue in argumentative curmudgeon vein and say I don't agree with the golf analogy because it is about golf. And this is about brewing. Two different things. In one you pointlessly wander around the countryside tormenting a defenceless little white ball while muttering and cursing about the process, then professing to love it. In the other, you make beer.

But seriously, the talk about someone who works in the brewing industry entering home brew comps is a bit of a red-herring and was started by what was little more than a throw-away line by David to suggest that maybe there are good reasons why some people may not want their dud results published. The real point is this: the established system is to publish only the names of place-getters, but everyone eventually gets their own score sheets (I assume that is the practice in this case?) after which they can share it with whomever they want. (Mind you, in an ideal world, organizers should make every effort to get those score sheets out very promptly after the publication of results). That is the expectation that has been created by past practice. To depart from it, you need to do as Tony says and put a specific checkbox on the entry form saying that you agree to the publication of your name and result on an Internet site, newsletter, national newspapers and international glossy magazines ... whatever. As this thread shows, most people will certainly agree. But until you have dotted the i and crossed the t, you can't just go making things up as you go along.

As you were. :icon_cheers:

 

[Fatgodzilla]

:lol: Not sure why the NSW pushes up past 6-7 pages. Did the same thing last year.

All the other states were lucky if they pushed past 3 pages each.

You blokes sure do take your comp-related politics seriously.



Warren -

Naaa, talking makes you thirsty and then you drink.

When the cricket starts next week, no one will feel like a good philosophical stoush, so get in early before NSW (sorry, there's a tasmanian and a couple of bananabenders there somewhere) Australia beat Sri Lanka !!

 

[schooey]

OK, so what happens when the prestige of the event is so great, that it attracts not only the Keith's but also the Lukes, David Hollyoaks, Tim Thomases, Scott Morgans, Gerard Meares, and what's the name of the guy from Murrays? So ten of the top micro-brewers in NSW enter the comp and at least three of them perform well in each category. Yay amateur brew comp!!!!!

I dunno... so what if they do as long as they are brewing with home brewing equipment? The only difference then can surely be ingredients and technique. If they chose to share some of those I can only see it as a bonus....

*shrugs*

 

[floppinab]

Interesting choice of title PoMo.
I came in here expecting to see a detailed analysis of Labors chances of picking up Howards battlers seats in a few weeks