Who Can Detect Dms?

[Malnourished]

But it is much more abundant when you use corn as an adjunct.

IIRC It's about 40% corn grits, this is basically giving the DMS character a major head-start.

Do you guys have any references for this claim? I can't find any... All I can find is telling me that its precursor (S-methyl methionine) is produced during the germination of malt (or DMS itself directly by bacteria.) Nothing about adjuncts at all.

A few quotes from the HBD:
Jeff Renner, HBD 25/09/98 - "I'm not sure just what you meant by creamed corn flavor/aroma. This is how DMS is often described, but it comes from the malt and not corn."
Al Korzonas, HBD 01/06/93 - "There are primarily two sources for DMS, bacteria and the malt... Another source for DMS is from the SMM that is created when malt is germinated."

And I gotta throw in a vote for Tooheys Extra Dry in the DMS stakes... mmm... boiled vegetables.

 

[homebrewworld.com]

I can detact PMS no worries !

 

[berapnopod]

Do you guys have any references for this claim? I can't find any... All I can find is telling me that its precursor (S-methyl methionine) is produced during the germination of malt (or DMS itself directly by bacteria.) Nothing about adjuncts at all.

I stand corrected.

What I was thinking about, was that you can use Bud vs. Miller to tell the difference between the two adjuncts rice and corn, respectively. I then made the incorrect jump that corn = cooked corn = DMS.

As far as I can tell, corn grits add some DMS to a brew, but about 20 times less than malt. However, if you use a large amount of adjuncts in beer, it will lower the detection threshold for DMS. ie. beers without flavour can't hide DMS so well.

Berp.

 

[warrenlw63]

Do you guys have any references for this claim? I can't find any... All I can find is telling me that its precursor (S-methyl methionine) is produced during the germination of malt (or DMS itself directly by bacteria.) Nothing about adjuncts at all.

[post="116421"][/post]​

Nothing in front of me MN. The point I'm trying to make is that a beer with such a high corn adjunct (read; MGD) it would be easy to mistake the DMS component with corn flavour/aroma itself. I've made a couple of CAPs which had 25 & 30% Polenta and this proved to be the case too. Corn leaves a grainy sweetness however (duh!) leaves a "corn character" too. Or what Dave Miller (convenient surname) describes as a "hominy" character.

What I was trying to say earlier in the piece was if you sample a bottle of Budweiser and a bottle of MDG side by side was the same amounts of DMS detectable in the rice adjunct beer as it was in the corn adjunct beer? Off the top of my head I'd probably say no. Also bear in mind the US beers are supposedly made from 6 row malt which is known to produce more DMS from the outset.

Crux of my argument. Do people mistake DMS for corn flavour/aroma from corn itself? OTOH Yes, I realise it's there in certain beers (with no corn) particularly paler, mainly Pils malts variants.

Edit: additional para.

Warren -

 

[warrenlw63]

I can detact PMS no worries !

[post="116423"][/post]​

:lol: :lol: Yes, it's here in trace amounts on this forum.

Warren -

 

[Joel]

I like the taste of creamed corn... :blink:

And I've enjoyed a Miller on occasion... I think I know the flavour your talking about. I don't really find it a bad flavour. Having said that, I don't think I'd like it in my ales, and when I try and make pilsners I don't want it there either.

I don't think my taste buds are made out to be judge material...

 

[homebrewworld.com]

I like the taste of creamed corn...

And I've enjoyed a Miller on occasion... I think I know the flavour your talking about. I don't really find it a bad flavour. Having said that, I don't think I'd like it in my ales, and when I try and make pilsners I don't want it there either.

I don't think my taste buds are made out to be judge material...


Joel
You are judging already !!
Go on, be a BJCP Judge.......

 

[Malnourished]

Also bear in mind the US beers are supposedly made from 6 row malt which is known to produce more DMS from the outset.

Are you sure? Once again I can't find anything to back this up, but DMS precursor analysis on malt analyses is pretty rare, I'll admit.

I do agree 100% that the same level of DMS would be more apparent in a high-adjunct lager than, say, a kellerbier. I'm not sure that the type of adjunct makes a difference, though. I suppose it's possible that flavours derived from actual corn would complement and boost DMS flavour, but I'm not sure it's a certainty. I suppose it's all down to individual taste anyway; DMS doesn't taste much like corn at all to me... I'd say more cabbage. And corn (in beer!) doesn't taste all that "corny" to me either, more like peaches. So perhaps I'm just crazy

(Edited to hide my stupidity)

 

[Stuster]

Malnourished,

According to the link that was posted in the no-chiller thread here

Two row barley which has a normally lower nitrogen content than six row barley, has been shown to produce significantly less SMM during the malting process. European malt has less SMM and DMS than North American and Canadian malt.

Regardless of variety or growing conditions, the most important factor for reducing SMM and DMS occurs during kilning.

So, 6 row does produce more SMM, but it don't matter anyhow. At least, it shouldn't it the maltsters know what they are up to.

If corn doesn't taste like corn to you, what does beer taste like? :lol:

 

[Malnourished]

stuff...

Well there you go! Thanks. I suppose I should've read the original thread...

If corn doesn't taste like corn to you, what does beer taste like? :lol:

LOL, I just re-read my post... probably should edit that.

 

[Hopsta]

I have marzen lagering at the moment (4 weeks) its kegged but not carbonated yet. Last night i poured a glass to taste and it stank like rotting vegies and tasted very acrid. I thought for sure that i had an infection and went to bed dissapointed. This morning i thought id give it another go before i tip it out and it tasted fine? I have used finnings in this brew aswell as racking to a secondary fermenter then racking to a keg so there is very minimal if any yeast sediment and my beer lines are clean. I've never had this happen before. Does DMS sink? Is it possible that what i tasted was DMS that had sunk to the bottom of the keg?

 

[warrenlw63]

Are you sure? Once again I can't find anything to back this up, but DMS precursor analysis on malt analyses is pretty rare, I'll admit.

[post="116773"][/post]​

Haven't heard of Google MN??? It's really helpful stuff.

Got this on the first hit.

Here

Taken from the site;

Proteins and DMS. Protein levels also increase the potential for dimethyl sulphide (DMS) formation in beer. The precursor of DMS, S-methyl methionine (SMM), is formed through protein breakdown during malting (14,15). Much of the SMM is converted to DMS through thermal decomposition during kilning and wort boiling. DMS formed during kilning and wort boiling is lost to the atmosphere. Pale malts generally have higher levels of SMM than do darker, highly kilned malts. When the length or vigor of boiling is inadequate to convert all residual SMM, DMS may continue to form as the wort cools. This DMS may persist into the beer. Although some DMS is desirable in lager beers, levels in excess of 50 ppb are thought to contribute a cooked or sweet corn flavor. Six-row malts contain higher levels of the DMS precursor SMM, presumably because of their higher protein content.

Total protein (% dry basis) (2 row) 11.5 (6 row) 12.5

Hope this helps. Reading is such joyous stuff.

To your question... Am I sure? No, not really never used six row and didn't write the article.

Am I wearing green shorts? Yes I'm sure. :blink:
Is NM a Doubting Thomas? Yes I'm sure. <_<

Warren -

 

[Malnourished]

Haven't heard of Google MN??? It's really helpful stuff.

You're absolutely right, Warren. Apologies.

Strangely enough I did Google (I wasn't using the right search terms obviously) and ended up on a different BT article about interpreting malt analyses... with no mention of what I was looking for of course.

Yours sincerely,
Doubting Thomas (wearing brown pants (wishing I was wearing shorts))

 

[neonmeate]

Is NM a Doubting Thomas? Yes I'm sure.

[post="116993"][/post]​

what's that about my john thomas?

 

[warrenlw63]

Is NM a Doubting Thomas? Yes I'm sure.

[post="116993"][/post]​

what's that about my john thomas?

[post="117000"][/post]​

:lol: :lol:

Warren -

 

[RobW]

Roger that!

 

[warrenlw63]

Think I need to bone-up on DMS. :lol:

Warren -