Whirlpool Process

[donburke]

Right, well I got no idea what happened with mine then. No cone formed at all?? For a 15l batch used 1/4 whirlfloc at 5 mins to go. WP'd as much as possible till it spilling over the sides. Still, the trub cone was more of a trub pancake!! Its a Big W pot.

Any ideas??

i give that a 1

roy & hg would call that a dogs breakfast

 

[Fat Bastard]

Think I got a reasonable cone in the inaugural brew in my system (hope it wasn't
a fluke) I did get the element positioned with ~40mm of clearance above the
kettle floor - trade-off with having more clearance (for better whirlpooling) vs
being able to keep down the minimum amount of fluid needed (in RIMS mode).

Looks similar to my set up except I have a home made hopscreen on the pickup, a perf plate bag rest and another s/s mesh false bottom that sits over that. Still can't get a whirlpool going that actually makes a cone. Just seems to stir shit up.

Just like Cocko and his pork-spinner.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Bigger, wider pot and nice flat bottom with minimal crap sticking into the kettle is the main thing, both theoretically and in my experience. Plus the "right" amount of kettle finings, not too little and not too much. but the wide pot helps most - whipping the crap out of it doesn't really make that much diff - this was 10 or 15 seconds of spinning it till the whole volume was rotating nicely and there was definite vortex shape, and a 10-15 min rest... but spinning it up with a power drill and attachment till it looks like a starter on my stirplate, makes little to no improvement.

In my converted keg kettle... i never got a decent cone, not once in over a hundred brews worth of trying different ways to manage it - in this pot (70L Al pot from allquip) it was like this first time and has been ever since.

 

[kelbygreen]

Yes TB got it. My 20 lt pot would not get any cone at all. My 50lt keggle got slight one but not like I seen. My 80lt pot very wide and flat bottom gets a perfect cone about a inch and a half from the sides is not trub just like TB pic.

edit: Oh forgot what the thread was about as I use a alloy pot to!

 

[Cocko]

Bigger, wider pot and nice flat bottom with minimal crap sticking into the kettle is the main thing, both theoretically and in my experience. Plus the "right" amount of kettle finings, not too little and not too much. but the wide pot helps most - whipping the crap out of it doesn't really make that much diff - this was 10 or 15 seconds of spinning it till the whole volume was rotating nicely and there was definite vortex shape, and a 10-15 min rest... but spinning it up with a power drill and attachment till it looks like a starter on my stirplate, makes little to no improvement.

In my converted keg kettle... i never got a decent cone, not once in over a hundred brews worth of trying different ways to manage it - in this pot (70L Al pot from allquip) it was like this first time and has been ever since.

Thought as such!

TB, is that really how much that PU tube drains that pot? FARK!

How? Is it cut on the angle to be flat against the bottom?

 

[Brewman_]

Bigger, wider pot and nice flat bottom with minimal crap sticking into the kettle is the main thing, both theoretically and in my experience. Plus the "right" amount of kettle finings, not too little and not too much. but the wide pot helps most - whipping the crap out of it doesn't really make that much diff - this was 10 or 15 seconds of spinning it till the whole volume was rotating nicely and there was definite vortex shape, and a 10-15 min rest... but spinning it up with a power drill and attachment till it looks like a starter on my stirplate, makes little to no improvement.

In my converted keg kettle... i never got a decent cone, not once in over a hundred brews worth of trying different ways to manage it - in this pot (70L Al pot from allquip) it was like this first time and has been ever since.

TB That really does look good.

But where is the rest of the liquid below the pickup tube? How did that get out of the kettle and leave the hot break so perfect?

Fear_n_loath

 

[TidalPete]

Love the idea of not having to whirlpool but having tried several ways to go about that in the past (not yours argon :icon_cheers: )
Happy to go with whirlpooling via the March & whirlpool tool ATM after going to the expense of all stainless in regards to the whirlpool with a complete stainless conversion of the brewery to come ASAP.

However, I do have several litres left in the kettle after draining to fermenter but just pour the lot, trub & all into a 5-litre jug to be chilled overnight & the resultant clear wort frozen for the next or future starter.

Getting to the pointy bit I need to ask if hop flowers from the original brew (boiled again post-brew perhaps?) can be kept (frozen?) as a filter for future brews? Very interested in this dollar-wise as they will be sterilised again in the boil of future brews & must have no influence on the IBU's? whatsoever?

If I'm correct, they can only be used for a limited number of brews?
Nothing lasts forever.
Keen to hear your responses as I mostly use pellets for the sake of the budget & happy to be corrected if going about this the wrong way?

TP

PS --- Interested in any info regards to a substitute for hop flowers? Small, smooth Mary River gravel?
Don't laugh! This has been done in the distant past when filtering the MT. Tony might remember?

 

[MaltyHops]

Looks similar to my set up except I have a home made hopscreen on the pickup, a perf plate bag rest and another s/s mesh false bottom that sits over that. Still can't get a whirlpool going that actually makes a cone. Just seems to stir shit up.

Just like Cocko and his pork-spinner.

Might be worth fishing the bag rest and false bottom out during the boil
stage - can imagine the perforated surfaces causing turbulence that wont
help cone formation. Could tie some nylon string to them to pull them out
to see if it makes a difference, with a more permanent solution if it proves
to solve the problem.

Could the hop screen also be causing too much turbulence? Could try
whirlpooling/draining the kettle without the hopscreen (into a cube so
if it didn't work, just drain back into kettle for a reboil). If this also makes
a difference then maybe make a lower profile hop screen.

 

[QldKev]

Since were throwing some pics of the kettle draining up, here is one from my last brew

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

Since were throwing some pics of the kettle draining up, here is one from my last brew

View attachment 52929

needs more hops h34r:

Back on topic, with a keggle would it just be better to let it drop and let the base of the keg do the rest? I was thinking of doing the same and having the pick up tube just above where the dome bottom starts.

 

[QldKev]

needs more hops h34r:

Back on topic, with a keggle would it just be better to let it drop and let the base of the keg do the rest? I was thinking of doing the same and having the pick up tube just above where the dome bottom starts.

That's 230g of pellets sitting there, but to be fair it's a 140L pot




I've only used a 50L keggle a dozen times. Like you said, the shape will help get a lot of the trub to the centre by gravity. I still think it is best to whirlpool them as you've only helping force more away from the tap.

 

[Fat Bastard]

Might be worth fishing the bag rest and false bottom out during the boil
stage - can imagine the perforated surfaces causing turbulence that wont
help cone formation. Could tie some nylon string to them to pull them out
to see if it makes a difference, with a more permanent solution if it proves
to solve the problem.

Could the hop screen also be causing too much turbulence? Could try
whirlpooling/draining the kettle without the hopscreen (into a cube so
if it didn't work, just drain back into kettle for a reboil). If this also makes
a difference then maybe make a lower profile hop screen.

I ran an experiment the other day with a handfull of rice under the FB and a handfull on top, filled the kettle and whirlpooled with a big spoon, and got 2 nice little piles of rice dead centre of both the mesh screen and bottom of the pot, so it works to a certain extent. Emboldened by this, I gave the wort a damn good thrashing about 20 minutes post boil, stirred up a lot of trub and got a nice flat pancake covering the false bottom and a layer on the bottom of the kettle itself.

I'm thinking that in the smaller diameter pots (mine's 36 litres - 355mm dia) the spoon creates too much turbulence and puts post of the hop trub and break material back into suspension, while there's not enough mass of moving liquid to move it to the centre.

I guess the next step here would be to get a pump of some sort and see if that improves things. If nothing else, it should eliminate the turbulence kicking up crap from the bottom.

Are those little brown pumps powerful enough to get a whirlpool going?

 

[kelbygreen]

ok in my experience your right wider or more volume pot will get better cone. I had 20lt pot never got a sign of a cone. 50lt keggle I got a cone but right to the edge. 80lt kettle I got perfect cone and about 20mm from the edge it stopped. even when the spinning in the kettle was very slow I could see particals in the kettle with 80lt pot but when they settle it was all in a cone.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Thought as such!

TB, is that really how much that PU tube drains that pot? FARK!

How? Is it cut on the angle to be flat against the bottom?

Cut at an angle so it sits more or less flat on the bottom - that particular brew I did a little bit of tilting to get the last of the liquid out... had a smidgeon of goo in it but i was short on volume. Normally I'd be leaving behind something like 500ml of wort, perhaps 1mm deep accross the pot bottom.

Remember - the spinning itself does bugger all because while you are spinning, you're just stirring all the crap up into suspension - it all happens while the spin slows down, as a result of the frictional forces between the sides and bottom of the pot and the liquid.

Tall thin whirlpools dont have the optimum shape for the currents that do "the job" in a whirlpool - wider flatter ones have a much better geometry. Ideally, the shape of the body of wort will be about square.. as wide as it is deep. Its not quite that, but near enough.

Also - the same amount of solids will form (surprise surprise) the same sized pile of gudge no matter what sized pot you put them in. 25L of wort (A) will make the same pile of goo in a 27L pot as it will in a 75L pot... its just that the pile will go all the way to the edge, or if there isn't enough room, just make a layer. In the bigger pot it sits in the middle with clear space around it. Same amount of malt to make a concentrated wort in a small pot??? same amount of solids, same sized pile of goo, but an even smaller pot and a worse result.

A lot of whirlpool success is also about the technique you use in draining. You should start slowly and gently, dont smash up the cone with the currents you make draining wort away. Once things are going, you can gently increase the rate, the cone has had a bit more chance to settle and stick to itself and you aren't making sudden changes in the amount of pysical stress its under - just monitor the wort to see that it stays clear - and then its vital that you slow down as soon as the top of the cone gets to the surface of the wort. You must allow the level of retained liquid in the cone, to drop at the same rate as the liquid level in the pot - if the liquid level in the pot drops faster than the cone can drain, it will be heavy and slushy and it will just start to flow and pull itself apart.

Decent pot - good boil geometry is close enough to good whirlpool geometry, so its a win win. But a bit wider is probably better in terms of whirlpooling.
Correct amount of kettle finings - and IMO Brewbrite is the best on offer
Good technique and a willingness to be a little patient.
Blessings of the gods - because sometimes it just doesn't bloody work no matter what you do (short of buying a new pot)

 

[iralosavic]

Cut at an angle so it sits more or less flat on the bottom - that particular brew I did a little bit of tilting to get the last of the liquid out... had a smidgeon of goo in it but i was short on volume. Normally I'd be leaving behind something like 500ml of wort, perhaps 1mm deep accross the pot bottom.

Remember - the spinning itself does bugger all because while you are spinning, you're just stirring all the crap up into suspension - it all happens while the spin slows down, as a result of the frictional forces between the sides and bottom of the pot and the liquid.

Tall thin whirlpools dont have the optimum shape for the currents that do "the job" in a whirlpool - wider flatter ones have a much better geometry. Ideally, the shape of the body of wort will be about square.. as wide as it is deep. Its not quite that, but near enough.

Also - the same amount of solids will form (surprise surprise) the same sized pile of gudge no matter what sized pot you put them in. 25L of wort (A) will make the same pile of goo in a 27L pot as it will in a 75L pot... its just that the pile will go all the way to the edge, or if there isn't enough room, just make a layer. In the bigger pot it sits in the middle with clear space around it. Same amount of malt to make a concentrated wort in a small pot??? same amount of solids, same sized pile of goo, but an even smaller pot and a worse result.

A lot of whirlpool success is also about the technique you use in draining. You should start slowly and gently, dont smash up the cone with the currents you make draining wort away. Once things are going, you can gently increase the rate, the cone has had a bit more chance to settle and stick to itself and you aren't making sudden changes in the amount of pysical stress its under - just monitor the wort to see that it stays clear - and then its vital that you slow down as soon as the top of the cone gets to the surface of the wort. You must allow the level of retained liquid in the cone, to drop at the same rate as the liquid level in the pot - if the liquid level in the pot drops faster than the cone can drain, it will be heavy and slushy and it will just start to flow and pull itself apart.

Decent pot - good boil geometry is close enough to good whirlpool geometry, so its a win win. But a bit wider is probably better in terms of whirlpooling.
Correct amount of kettle finings - and IMO Brewbrite is the best on offer
Good technique and a willingness to be a little patient.
Blessings of the gods - because sometimes it just doesn't bloody work no matter what you do (short of buying a new pot)

Some handy tips, as usual. My last brew was a whirlpool disaster. I lost 5L from a 20L batch (usually lose 1). I tried out using a hop spider to try and improve on 1L loss (lol) and the hop spider poly pipe distorted under the hot steam and dropped the hop sock into the boil. Expecting to have no solids in the boil, I had no drain filter/screen, so at the 5L mark I had to stop draining as it was starting to block. But yeah, the whirlpool appeared to do absolutely nothing in my keggle.

 

[pk.sax]

Try a gentler whirlpool with a broom handle.

Being serious here, I always get a cone in my keggle, just not as nice as those big pot ones. Been doing little experiments in a tea mug with tea leaves and a spoon's back end and that's what I've come up with.
Less distance between the walls of the pot and the centre means the energy in the flow at the side will be too high if you are thrashing it hard. I can't try it for myself yet as my gear is in a state of rebuild.

 

[sponge]

I actually use a thick-ish piece of dowel so to speak, similar to a broom handle, for my whirlpools, and although it doesnt get a crazy tight cone, it still has a nice lightly packed cone in the keggle which doesnt get sucked into the cube upon transfer.

Just seems easier to create a decent whirlpool using it as opposed to the mash paddle with the flat end.


Sponge

 

[kcurnow]

I have a few photos from whirlpooling on a 600L DME setup. I realise its a bit larger than the usual homebrew setup but it was interesting to see.
The first photo shows the whirlpool. Essentially the wort is pumped out the bottom of the kettle and back in via a tangential inlet to get the whirlpool action. The pump is then switched off and the wort allowed to settle for about 20 minutes allowing the whirlpool to come to a stop. The wort is then pumped slowly from the side of the kettle and through the 2 stage glycol chiller. The second phot shows the top of the trub cone just starting to poke through the top of the wort in the kettle. At this stage the brewers generally stopped pumping to prevent any of the trub being pumped through the chiller and into the fermenters. This is probably the biggest difference with large scale brews compared to homebrewing in that the % of wort left in the kettle is much smaller on large batches than if you are brewing a 20L batch and have to leave a few litres in the kettle. The final photo is a shot of the wort on the cold side of the glycol chiller showing the cold break that formed during the rapid cooling process.

Cheers

Karl

 

[Gar]

I get quite a nice cone in my 40L Birko with exposed element...

When no chilling, I let it settle for 10 minutes or so with the lid off, then whirlpool fast as I can with my mash paddle, put the lid on and leave sit for 15 minutes or so.

I use a 90' elbow with a 3/8" hose barb for a pickup tube which I'm soon modifying to have a silicone hose with a tea ball on the end to reach the bottom.

 

[stux]

:lol:



Maybe the bigger pot helps.. dunno, used to get pretty constant result on that kettle.

Can't stress the really getting it spinning enough, start slow, small circle in the middle blah blah as before...

Irish Moss tablets - 4 tablets [in 88L] @ 10 minutes.



Oh, I also shelve half a tablet @ 5 minutes h34r:

Damn. I use 1 in 66L