"Things I'm sure you don't need to do to make great beer&#

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welly2

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Flamebait if I've ever seen it. Unfortunately reeks of the "I haven't noticed a problem so it isn't an issue" mentality, flying in the face of many a scientist and professional researcher out there. If something suits the individual brewer then good for them, but that doesn't make an idea conclusive.
Not why why I'm saying this, the trolls have won.
 
Was expecting to see an article from the Brulosopher. Clearly this guy is a fan though as he cites their work as a reference.
 
welly2 said:
Actually he just lists two things. A comment re: yeast pitching temperature I'm a little dubious about:

"if it isn't too hot to kill them, it's not too hot to pitch"

From what I understand, the start of fermentation is when your temperature has to be right (ie. not too hot) otherwise too high a temperature and you start introducing flavours you don't want.

http://www.beer-simple.com/brewing/2016/6/20/wasted-things-im-sure-you-dont-need-to-do-to-make-great-beer
At the start of fermentation yes- but as he points out, the first hour or so is normally a rousing and growth phase with little fermentation going on. I wouldnt pitch at 35C but if you can get the wort to say 28C and are confident it will be at 20C in an hour or 2 then why not?

I actually agree with his points made but am open to listening to those who have a valid reasoning why he is wrong.
 
Citing Brulosopher is like citing myth busters as a reference.
On second thoughts, it does prove the author hasn't got a clue so I can stop wasting my time by reading any further.
Mark
 
When I read and doubt something like this I simply think whether it would be a practice of more professional craft brewers. Simple answer is no. It wouldn't be acceptable for a large scale brewers to pitch at high temps.....would it???
Also I have read countless postings from home brewers on forums who some may have that (she'll be right loose attitude) also noting that ditch brews seem to be more common and acceptable to these brewers as well if you read enough to see a pattern.
 
Stealing the word 'flamebait'.

:written opinion which endeavours to cause frustration and argument from respondents and observers.


Edit: Crap, am I getting old and out of touch!?
 
You're right there with what Dan was saying


Danscraftbeer said:
Also I have read countless postings from home brewers on forums who some may have that (she'll be right loose attitude) also noting that ditch brews seem to be more common and acceptable to these brewers as well if you read enough to see a pattern.
I've never ditched a batch, the only times I've come close are with my Belgian Golden Strong made with Aussie malts and home made candi sugar (that ended up coming good after 2 years and did well at the Newcastle show)
And a Cream Ale that I currently have in keg, but I think that's more to do with it tasting of cooked corn because I used stock feed cracked corn in a fairly high amount and it was my first ever cereal mash
Other than that I've stuck to proven methods and never had a "bad" batch (my 6 month battle with a brewery wide infection doesn't count...)
 
zorsoc_cosdog said:
Stealing the word 'flamebait'.

:written opinion which endeavours to cause frustration and argument from respondents and observers.


Edit: Crap, am I getting old and out of touch!?
4bd803541fdbf1bfec9f6f71a786c363.jpg
 
I still havent seen any valid argument against his points other than shortcuts will reduce quality. Which is fair but not specific.

So lets put aside the yeast pitch because I can see how that could create issues and the- if it doesnt kill em then its fine argument is probably there to stir debate.

But his other 2 points- secondary and whirlpool.

Who here actually uses secondary regularly unless it is to add say fruit or bulk prime? Probably not many so i think he makes a valid point and doubt many brewers who ditch the 2ndry turn out poorer beers because of it.

Whirlpool- who here does a 30 minute whirlpool? Im assuming that he is talking about spinning it for 30 minutes and is not including the rest period for either hop stand or letting the wort come to a stop. Personally, I use a spoon and whirlpool for no longer than a minute before letting the wort come to a stop and always get a good trub cone.

Anyone reckon that the 2 points above will cause serious detriment to a beer?
 
Droopy
The problem with people like Beer-Simp and Brulosopher is ignorance. On the www to a very large extent anything the reader thinks sounds plausible carries equal weight. Without any qualification or systematic research, it all appears to come down to I think it tastes OK and so do my mates so it must be right!

Luckily brewing is a natural process that wants to happen and we are working with yeast that has a pretty powerful evolutionary imperative to survive. People have been deliberately making alcohol from grain since the stone age, starting around the industrial revolution we have been systematically researching brewing and I would contend that at this point we can and often do have access to the best beer made in human history. We know what ingredients it takes and the best way to process them, we know more about yeast than ever before, how it acts and the effect that has on the beer we want to make.

Just to address your three points above, including the one you opted out on.
Yeast
How many times have you seen reference to Chris White showing people how much yeast is killed just by pitching into wort, rather than hydrating it properly? Personally I'm a little skeptical and do remember he has a vested interest.
Some yob saying he can dump his yeast into a hot wort with no ill-effects is even more unbelievable, fortunately for him even if he was killing 90% of his yeast the beer will still get brewed. Would the beer benefit? Unlikely, as we can measure the metabolic effects of brewing hotter/cooler - if you don't believe me do a split batch of a hefeweizen brewed at both ends of the recommended temperature range - you won't need a gas chromatograph to tell the difference.
Demonstrably pitching/ferment temperature will affect beer.

Racking/Secondary
If you are brewing Ale you don't need to rack beer. The qualifier being that you have put enough healthy yeast into the wort to complete the ferment before deleterious effects from aging/dying yeast (and a few other aging effects) kick in. Again these are well understood and are described in fault diagnosis tables, read up Protease A, Autolysis, Carbonyls and auto-oxidisation... there are plenty. The harm done to beer flavour and head formation/retention are again measurable and quantifiable.
At a home brewing level there are clearly some risks in racking as well as possible benefits, doesn't mean you Should or Shouldn't rack. It means you need to understand the results of the choices you make, and what those choices are based on.

Whirlpooling
Clearly you or Beer-Chimp have no idea what is happening in a whirlpool. It isn't the stirring it into spinning but the slowing down that forms the trub cone. Stirring it any longer, too vigorously or too fast (over3m/s) than necessary will have negative effects on the trub removal/cone formation, mostly by breaking up flock particles and the first rule of flock is "the bigger it is the faster it falls" (read up on Stokes Law), stirring too much will also introduce more oxygen and, yes, HSA is real, and again we can measure the effects.
I will do Simp the courtesy of assuming he isn't a total fuckwit and that he means - establish rotation then leave it for 30 minutes to settle - with a decent kettle fining that may be excessive but any other interpretation would be seriously wrong headed.

Short cuts DO reduce quality, not just in brewing, Christ if you were painting the lounge room walls - the preparation is more important than the painting. If your first concern is "Cheap Quick Alcohol" do what you like - if you want good beer do it right!
Mark
 
@droopy - Re whirlpool: I think he's talking about settling time.

I agree with don't believe everything you read/are told and I agree you need to assess methods based on your own experience as much as anything else. That's exactly why I let my whirlpooled wort sit, covered for 20 mins before running off and why I pitch cool.

One thing he's missed in his discussion comments is that while esters are formed later in fermentation, they are part of a chemical pathway that begins earlier in the process. The precursors that lead to specific levels and types of ester are influenced by things like temperature (and a bunch of other things).
 
Some good points Mark. Firstly your point about the internet is well taken. I have learnt a hell of a lot about brewing through this site but I always make sure I have a good look at who is providing the advise in context of some of their other posts. Blokes like yourself, I have read enough to know that something you say is worth taking to the bank. Others- well not so much.

I didnt really opt out of the yeast point, more so recognising that it wasnt his strongest argument. I suppose it depends a bit on what is a high temp. Dry yeast is reccommended to be rehydrated at about 35C (danstar). Now Im not sure if liquid yeast would handle that temp and I dont think he specifies temps but if I pitched at say 26C and cooled it to 18C in a couple of hours- will that have a marked impact on the flavour? I know that fermenting at the 2 temps would but in that first hour or 2 how much fermentaion is going on vs growth and rousing ? and would the yeast activity during that period produce compounds that will affect the flavour?

Point taken on the secondary- he has made a fairly broad statement and there are times where it would be advisable to 2ndry. I have never done it- simply because my beers spend no more than a few weeks in the fermenter and the issues you mention generally take more time to develop yeah?

With the whirlpooling I think you are saying the same as what I have. The stir does not need to be long and really the settling period doesnt either- once it has stopped moving then it should be right to go. I think that is also what he is saying, he says you dont need a 30 minute whirlpool, he uses 7 minutes. What wasnt clear was if he was talking about the actual spinning or the settling (which as you say is what seperates the trub). Yes lets assume he isnt a fuckwit and is talking about total time.

I agree shortcuts will generally result in a poorer product but cutting out unnecessary steps or time is not always a shortcut and may be an improvement in some cases.
 
Re : temp - I'm hypothesising but my main reason for cool pitching is fermentation is exothermic so pitching above intended temp will work against cooling. As I no chill and have the luxury of time, I prefer to drop a couple of degrees below intended temp before pitching. Anecdotal but I have noticed cleaner tasting beer from doing this.
 
MHB said:
Droopy
The problem with people like Beer-Simp and Brulosopher is ignorance. O
Mark,

I agree with everything you are saying in your post with just the one comment. I have read plenty of the articles from Brulosopher, and whether or not we collectively agree with them or not doesn't really matter for this conversation. To me, the value of what he is doing is that he provokes thought and challenges the status quo. Granted, at time he might potentially want to create some controversy, and whether or not it is his intention or otherwise, he challenges us to think outside the square......that is the part of this hobby that I most enjoy. I don't do it to save money, I don't necessarily do it to drink more beer, I love it because it gives me an opportunity in my life to think about something that really interests me from all sorts of problem solving angles. That excites me. I wish my work was more like that.

I too dislike the ignorant yob who has an idea and therfore it is fact. At least Brulosopher tries to tackle an idea with some semblance of structure and then tests his theory on the finished product. I would much rather that than the straight up "I have an idea therefore it is fact" approach.

Regards, Anthony
 
Yeah fair point. Heat generated by yeast growth may slow down cooling and result in fermentation at higher than intended temps.

For what its worth I cool to intended fermentation temp before pitching, but was interested in his theory of the growth phase during that period of time.
 
One thing I will say about yeast is that it is very temperature sensitive in some unexpected ways.
To give an example, back before we manufactured enzymes by tinkering with bacteria. Invertase was made by dumping a whole lot of yeast into a hot (~60oC IIRC) strong sugar solution. As it was curling up and dying it would pump out all the Invertase it could, in response to the presence of sucrose.

Without doing a bunch or re-reading books I haven't looked at for a while - so general knowledge rather than referenced - high temperature (>25oC) dramatically increases the rate of mutations, particularly petite mutation, so not something you would want to do if you were planning to reuse the yeast.
Another point that comes to mind is the way yeast metabolises wort sugars, I think if you pitch hot some yeasts loose or at least stunt their ability to ferment Maltotriose - reducing the attenuation limit of the beer... Unexpected outcomes and very strain dependant. Even if you get away with abusing one yeast that doesn't mean you can treat all yeast the same

Two weeks is the generally accepted upper limit for contact with the original yeast. That is at around 18oC a lot less if you ferment warmer. Past that the harm is measurable.
I know it isn't AHB conventional wisdom but "If the ferment isn't over in 7 days you underpitched!" In commercial brewing you would expect to reach FG in 3-4 days, in a CCV by the 7th day the yeast would probably have been cropped 3 times so even if left to mature longer the yeast will be a lot younger and healthy.

Anthony - sadly I find what I have read of Brulosopher to be pseudoscience - typifying what I mean by sounding convincing, without any quantitative or qualitative testing other than tastes OK to me...
Mark
 

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