"Things I'm sure you don't need to do to make great beer&#

[manticle]

The main issue I have with brulosophy is not so much with them or the way they 'test' - it is very openly presented as not being dogmatic fact or binding science but simply an experience shared on the internet.

What is troubling is how many people seem to accept those experiences as fact/science, using brulosophy as a reference because 'they did it and the beer was ok'. It's some guys who tried stuff, just like we do and wrote about what they tried and what they thought on the internet. There's loads of other stuff on the net, both experiential and experimental that has found the opposite in similar circumstances.

 

[TheWiggman]

Back out of this thread now Mark or you may well have an aneuryism!

 

[GalBrew]

I know it isn't AHB conventional wisdom but "If the ferment isn't over in 7 days you underpitched!" In commercial brewing you would expect to reach FG in 3-4 days.....

Agreed, my ferments always hit FG in 4-5 days tops. I put it down to pitching rate and oxygenation.

 

[AJS2154]

The main issue I have with brulosophy is not so much with them or the way they 'test' - it is very openly presented as not being dogmatic fact or binding science but simply an experience shared on the internet.

What is troubling is how many people seem to accept those experiences as fact/science, using brulosophy as a reference because 'they did it and the beer was ok'. It's some guys who tried stuff, just like we do and wrote about what they tried and what they thought on the internet. There's loads of other stuff on the net, both experiential and experimental that has found the opposite in similar circumstances.

Yes, still in agreement with you manticle. If people accept the loose findings of a technique as factual, that is an error of judgement on behalf of the person rather than the presenter. But don't we all do that every day, with so many aspects of our life? We take a bit of information from here, some from there and maybe some technical information. We put it together in a decision matrix. That's why I am on this site, and how I have learnt most of my life.

I was a young graduate working in research and fast found that the real skill was often finding the statistical analysis to support your hypothesis, rather than the research. That's why there is often opposite findings on the same subject, especially when combined with personal biases

Not looking to give you an aneuryism Mark. I often read your posts and respect your opinions....just enjoying the conversation.

See you, Anthony

 

[GalBrew]

I was a young graduate working in research and fast found that the real skill was often finding the statistical analysis to support your hypothesis, rather than the research.

Ha! Totally. I loved it when people would just choose different post-hoc tests until significance was achieved.....or just go straight to non-parametric tests and justify it in their own mind as ok.

 

[MHB]

Back out of this thread now Mark or you may well have an aneuryism!

Not even lightly stressed - and am enjoying the conversation.
Mind you its far from the first time this type of thing has come up since I started here over 10 years ago.
Maybe I shouldn't bother, people who are highly focused on getting pissed cheap/lazily appear to vanish over time - probably end up on distilling fora discussing how dear sugar, bakers yeast and tomato puree have become. So its probably a self correcting problem, mind you an observation based on 20 years making a living selling home brew, people who make good beer keep brewing.
Mark

 

[Killer Brew]

One thing I will say about yeast is that it is very temperature sensitive in some unexpected ways.
To give an example, back before we manufactured enzymes by tinkering with bacteria. Invertase was made by dumping a whole lot of yeast into a hot (~60oC IIRC) strong sugar solution. As it was curling up and dying it would pump out all the Invertase it could, in response to the presence of sucrose.

Without doing a bunch or re-reading books I haven't looked at for a while - so general knowledge rather than referenced - high temperature (>25oC) dramatically increases the rate of mutations, particularly petite mutation, so not something you would want to do if you were planning to reuse the yeast.
Another point that comes to mind is the way yeast metabolises wort sugars, I think if you pitch hot some yeasts loose or at least stunt their ability to ferment Maltotriose - reducing the attenuation limit of the beer... Unexpected outcomes and very strain dependant. Even if you get away with abusing one yeast that doesn't mean you can treat all yeast the same

Two weeks is the generally accepted upper limit for contact with the original yeast. That is at around 18oC a lot less if you ferment warmer. Past that the harm is measurable.
I know it isn't AHB conventional wisdom but "If the ferment isn't over in 7 days you underpitched!" In commercial brewing you would expect to reach FG in 3-4 days, in a CCV by the 7th day the yeast would probably have been cropped 3 times so even if left to mature longer the yeast will be a lot younger and healthy.

Anthony - sadly I find what I have read of Brulosopher to be pseudoscience - typifying what I mean by sounding convincing, without any quantitative or qualitative testing other than tastes OK to me...
Mark

I recall reading also in my IBD materials that yeast is susceptible to rapid temp changes of greater than a couple of degrees per hour so a crash from a high pitching temp down to ferment temps would be detrimental. Is that consistent with your understanding Mark?

 

[MHB]

Not specifically - mind you its been a while since studying for the IBD. But Yes, well recall that yeast likes low and steady and its frighteningly easy to put it off its game.
As above yeast can sometimes react in unexpected ways, temperamental little suckers.

You enjoying the IBD study? I found it fascinating, if just a touch Anglocentric - still got most of the resources I put together to study from, if you need anything please feel free to contact me
Mark

 

[sp0rk]

Not even lightly stressed - and am enjoying the conversation.
Mind you its far from the first time this type of thing has come up since I started here over 10 years ago.
Maybe I shouldn't bother, people who are highly focused on getting pissed cheap/lazily appear to vanish over time - probably end up on distilling fora discussing how dear sugar, bakers yeast and tomato puree have become. So its probably a self correcting problem, mind you an observation based on 20 years making a living selling home brew, people who make good beer keep brewing.
Mark

Gotta admit, TPW makes a damn fine neutral

 

[manticle]

Yes, still in agreement with you manticle. If people accept the loose findings of a technique as factual, that is an error of judgement on behalf of the person rather than the presenter. But don't we all do that every day, with so many aspects of our life? We take a bit of information from here, some from there and maybe some technical information. We put it together in a decision matrix. That's why I am on this site, and how I have learnt most of my life.


See you, Anthony

Of course we do. What I mean is, (as an example) situations such as where someone recommends separating hot trub from wort and some genius pops up with a link to a single exbeeriment where they include trub and say authoritaively that it's all a disproven myth and no-one should bother.

Nothing at all wrong with reading, trying stuff at home and seeing how it all works in your final product. You are the ultimate judge and master of your own palate (although knowledge about what and why is super helpful). I have nothing against people trying stuff and telling people their experiences. In this instance, my experience differs and I liken it very much to what I learned in kitchens. Everything you do matters in the end, some more than others.

 

[Killer Brew]

Not specifically - mind you its been a while since studying for the IBD. But Yes, well recall that yeast likes low and steady and its frighteningly easy to put it off its game.
As above yeast can sometimes react in unexpected ways, temperamental little suckers.

You enjoying the IBD study? I found it fascinating, if just a touch Anglocentric - still got most of the resources I put together to study from, if you need anything please feel free to contact me
Mark

Thanks for the offer. I know what you mean by Anglocentric. Doing the craft beer section I had to learn about casking!

I chose to do a 2 week intense study via Tafe SA to help prepare for the exam which I sat in May. Really enjoyed the hands on learning delivered by local brewing legend Stephen Nelsen both in the classroom and on their 10HL system. Got the results earlier this month and passed the exam so it's nice to have that in the back pocket if I ever need. Challenge to myself now is to keep learning.

 

[yankinoz]

Re brulosophy, he sometimes runs useful experiments, but other times he reduces to a single experiment a problem that requires many.

For example, he tested several German wheat beer yeasts by fermenting at 18 C and found that several, including the popular Weihenstephaner strain, produced little or no banana ester. At that temp few do, and to evaluate banana there should have been a parallel trial at 21 or 22.

 

[manticle]

For experimental combined with experiential by someone heavily involved/well known in homebrewing circles, it is hard to beat kai troester from braukaiser.

 

[schtev]

For experimental combined with experiential by someone heavily involved/well known in homebrewing circles, it is hard to beat kai troester from braukaiser.

A pity he is pretty quiet these days. Although the recent flurry about "LODO" or low dissolved oxygen brewing was enough to elicit a blog post from him. I hope he puts some of that stuff to the test.

 

[manticle]

Cheers. Hadn't heard about LODO but initial skim reading looks interesting.

 

[Brownsworthy]

Underpants that's what it is!

I'm sure I don't need underpants to make great beer.

 

[Blind Dog]

Thanks for the offer. I know what you mean by Anglocentric. Doing the craft beer section I had to learn about casking!

I chose to do a 2 week intense study via Tafe SA to help prepare for the exam which I sat in May. Really enjoyed the hands on learning delivered by local brewing legend Stephen Nelsen both in the classroom and on their 10HL system. Got the results earlier this month and passed the exam so it's nice to have that in the back pocket if I ever need. Challenge to myself now is to keep learning.

OT, but Congratulations. You must have been stoked

 

[Zorco]

Underpants that's what it is!

I'm sure I don't need underpants to make great beer.

Can confirm this. A highly successful Pilsner was brewed without testicular support. I claimed physical exhaustion however and sought delicate massage.

Not covered under Medicare it seems!

 

[Markbeer]

I think one of the big problems with Brulosophy and other experiments of that ilk is that they choose to do experiments on beers that are APAs or IPAs that are dry hopped.

These beers are probably the best at covering the flaws caused by processes they are trying to debunk.

They should redo a lot on something like a kolsch. That will show the process change a lot better.

 

[whitegoose]

I really enjoy this sort of article and this sort of debate.
Personally I think that brewing is riddled with old wives tales, myths, and half truths... and I think that many people never question any of it and take it for gospel.I question pretty much everything, and granted, a lot of it turns out to be valuable, but not everything.