The "no Chiller" Method

[JasonY]

Well I was plannig a lager today bu after sampling the starter and finding a nice vinegar taste to it I decided not to bother. Beer stocks are low however so I decided to give this a shot and knocked up a quick ordinary bitter which is not sitting in the jerry can, will aim to get some yeast going in it by the w/end.

I find this a very intersting idea, I don't think I would make this a regular thing regardless of how it turns out as to chill with a CFWC take me only an extra 10mins so in terms of time savings it is not going to do it for me.

However for the situation I was in today it allows me to still brew which is great! I may also use it as AusDB mentioned to make a 50L batch and chill half and store the other half (my ferm freezer cant take a 50L fermenter).

Ray, thanks for bringing this method up. Another bit of flexibility for brewing is always good.

 

[pint of lager]

This debate has been interesting, but brewers must be certain of the risks and variables in the process.

It is widely accepted that achieving a quick cool down and pitching as soon as possible is prefferable brewing practise.

It is also obvious that some brewers are having success with storing hot and pitching some time into the future. Just because the process works for people like Kai, Ray Mills and microbreweries does not automatically mean that it will work for you.

Kai and Ray Mills are brewers that have shown in the winner's circle that they pay alot of attention to their brewing. They may have perfected variables that other brewers may still struggling with. Boil length and strength, water treatment, correct hopping, correct transfer and perfect sanitation are variables that spring to mind that would have an effect on wort stability. Just because it works for people such as Kai and Ray, does not automatically mean it will work for you.

This is a big trap for many newer brewers who see or read of different proceedures that Ross, Kai, Ray, GLS, Barry or of any other top notch brewer, without understanding that these advanced brewers pay attention to all aspects of their brewing. For instance, a brewer that has access to large coldroom facilities will have a big edge over people who store their brews at room temperature, because cold storage means the brews do not show signs of aging as quickly.

There are many many variables. It is only side by side experiments that can give a true picture.

Storing warm does give some flexability to the brewing day, but should not be looked on as the way to go.

 

[warrenlw63]

Easier put.

It's a hobby not administering life-altering medication to one's self.

Try it if you must. If you like it and it works for you. Then you're in a win-win situation. If not well at least you've appeased your curiousity. :beerbang:

Warren -

 

[T.D.]

One of the best beers I have made was done without using a chiller. I just filled a 25L cube and left it overnight. My chiller is pretty small (only 5-7m of copper I reckon) and I shudder to think what dodgies could be landing in that wort in the ~30mins it takes to cool. Not to mention the water that is used during the process. This may be a really practical way to go in the future - especially for lagers where the chiller won't get the wort down to pitching temp anyway. I could leave the hot wort in a cube overnight and then put it in the fridge the next day until it arrives at pitching temp.

I haven't read every post in this thread so please forgive me if this has been mentioned before, but this is the exact way the ESB Fresh Wort kits are done, and as far as I know they are highly regarded in terms of quality. Clearly the "fast chill and pitch" rule doesn't seem to be adversely affecting their results. I am not saying that I will do it this way every time, but I certainly won't rule out doing it in the future. As Duff indicated, you have the added benefit of doing several brews at once and then pitching them as needed or as fermenters become available.

 

[user 384]

As homebrewers much of our knowledge and practices come from the commerical world. On a number of oaccasions we have seen that commercial practices don't always translate to homebrew best practice. For exmaple, fly sparging. In a commercial setting, a commercial brewery is likely to adopt this method because, if done correctly, it will enable them to wash the highest percentage possible sugars from the grain bed (obviously stopping before they start extracting tannins). In the early days of home brewing, fly sparging was the way to go and we have all ready early books that discussed in great detail manifold designs to stop chanelling. Many people got hung up on such things, but a few decided to try batch sparging. The results were fine for a home brew environment and in most cases worked better, with the only down side being a small drop in efficiency (although if your fly sparging technique was poor, there was often no drop in comparative efficiency).

The no chiller method might be the new batch sparging (please note I said might). My guess that rapid cooling is essential in a comercial setting for a couple of reasons. The most obvious is that letting commercial quantities of wort, tens of thousands, to cool by ambient air alone is going to take a very long time. Time is something that commercial breweries don't have on their side (unlike us). They have to worry about throughput. They need to get the beer fermented, bottled and out on the market as quickly as possible.

Just because, something is accepted as standard practice, doesn't mean that it will be the best approach for you or your situation. I've tried the no chiller mehtod before (when my pick-up tube got clogged and I had to siphon straight into a jerry can) and it worked for me.

So if you're interested, then give it a go. Maybe make a double batch and run the first half through a CFC and the second half treat as the no chiller method. Once both batches are fermented, then taste them side by side (blind tasting preferably).

Cheers
MAH

 

[Ross]

Didn't want to suck up the break. Will rack my Oktoberfest this afternoon to a fermenter. I'm hoping with a 20L cube and tap that most of the break should settle down the sides.

Cheers.

[post="115475"][/post]​

Can we have clarification here from those that use this method - my understanding was that "hot wort" kits were packaged hot & therefore the break material is still in there?? Or does waiting 15 mins like Ray does, actually still remove the break? I know some feel the break material is good for the wort - I personally prefer to remove. If I have to rack off the break material from the cube I'm going to have double the wastage, as my dead space in the kettle will still be left there.
This method has it's advantages to me on a double brew day, where I'm strapped for time, but just want to get the process correct in my mind...

cheers Ross...

 

[AndrewQLD]

Ross, the fifteen minute rest after the boil will allow you to drain the still hot wort minus the hot break and trub, the same as if you cooled the wort then drained. The issue with this method is ALL of the cold break will end up in the cube after the wort has cooled to pitching temp. For me that was not an issue because I racked the wort off the cold break leaving about 1.5 lt of very thick cold break in the bottom of the cube.
The 1.5 lt loss in the cube does not worry me because with my boiler setup I have no losses after draining.
hope that helps

Cheers
Andrew

 

[JasonY]

In terms of hot break it will be the same as any other brew most should be left in the kettle if you whirlpool etc. What cold break you get will wind up in the cube this is no different for those who CFWC as the cold break ends up in the fermenter anyway. If you immersion chill then yes you will end up with more break material in your cube/ferementer as you would have previously left most of it in the kettle.

The question is will there be as much cold break as a beer that is force cooled? I assume the only potential effect of this would be a higher chance of chill haze etc with less protiens removed in the cold break. Anyway in a few weeks I will see how the one I tried ended up like.

 

[Ross]

Ross, the fifteen minute rest after the boil will allow you to drain the still hot wort minus the hot break and trub, the same as if you cooled the wort then drained. The issue with this method is ALL of the cold break will end up in the cube after the wort has cooled to pitching temp. For me that was not an issue because I racked the wort off the cold break leaving about 1.5 lt of very thick cold break in the bottom of the cube.
The 1.5 lt loss in the cube does not worry me because with my boiler setup I have no losses after draining.
hope that helps

Cheers
Andrew

[post="115478"][/post]​

Thanks Andrew - that makes perfect sense - But would still like to know what ESB does with their hot wort kits - If they package hot, then I'm assuming all the cold break material is left in the product they sell?

cheers Ross

 

[Ross]

In terms of hot break it will be the same as any other brew most should be left in the kettle if you whirlpool etc. What cold break you get will wind up in the cube this is no different for those who CFWC as the cold break ends up in the fermenter anyway.

[post="115479"][/post]​

I guess there's no point in CFWC users using this method - as you have the cool wort in almost exactly the same time anyway?

cheers Ross...

 

[JasonY]

I guess there's no point in CFWC users using this method - as you have the cool wort in almost exactly the same time anyway?

[post="115483"][/post]​

I agree it doesn't save me much time given I CFWC.

I still find it interesting and it certainly adds a bit of flexibility as I mentioned in my post further back (yeast starter failed but I wanted to brew so I have some wort sitting there wating for yeast).

If the one I tried works ok then I will try a split batch for a lager next time which will be a good experiment.

 

[pint of lager]

Some reading on hot and cold break from Brewing Techniques.

Cold Trub: Implications for Finished Beer, and Methods of Removal

Hot Trub: Formation and Removal

 

[user 384]

I guess there's no point in CFWC users using this method - as you have the cool wort in almost exactly the same time anyway?

cheers Ross...

[post="115483"][/post]​

Hi Ross

Maybe not. Ray has indicated that he no longer uses a chiller at all and the benefit is that he has one less piece of equipment that needs sanitising. There have always been concerns about CFC's because they are a closed system and you can't visually imspect the inner coil. For those that use a CFC, but are worried about how clean they can get it, this might be an alternative approach.

For IC users there is very little problem with sanitising the equipment, for them it's a question of exposing the wort to airborne contaniments during chilling. Not sure how big an issue this.

Cheers
MAH

 

[Stuster]

Interesting reading PoL.

The first article suggests to me that the benefits of removing the cold break are not that vital, and extra steps tend to add risks after all.

The cost of extra equipment and labor and the increased risk of contamination are valid arguments for not removing cold trub.

It may be detrimental to some beers, especially those made from high-gravity worts.

The article suggests leaving cold trub in higher gravity worts.

Most American breweries no longer remove cold trub.

While the article goes on to say that pale, light lagers may benefit from cold trub removal, and since this is the main product of the American breweries, they would do it if there were any benefit.

Overall, cold trub removal appears a good thing, but hardly the end of the world.

The effects of cold trub removal are subtle and may not be noticeable for several generations.

 

[Duff]

Ross, the fifteen minute rest after the boil will allow you to drain the still hot wort minus the hot break and trub, the same as if you cooled the wort then drained. The issue with this method is ALL of the cold break will end up in the cube after the wort has cooled to pitching temp. For me that was not an issue because I racked the wort off the cold break leaving about 1.5 lt of very thick cold break in the bottom of the cube.
The 1.5 lt loss in the cube does not worry me because with my boiler setup I have no losses after draining.
hope that helps

Cheers
Andrew

[post="115478"][/post]​

Thanks Andrew - that makes perfect sense - But would still like to know what ESB does with their hot wort kits - If they package hot, then I'm assuming all the cold break material is left in the product they sell?

cheers Ross

[post="115480"][/post]​

I'm sure you'd know what the process is Gerard. Could you fill us in? A couple of times you've mentioned picking up wort containers which are still warm.

From my experience with them, there is no break material at all inside, just clear wort.

Cheers.

 

[Gerard_M]

OK so without giving away too many secrets, the Fresh Wort Kits that Matt @ St Peter's produce for ESB are made using a single step mash. Irish moss tablets are added to the boil with 15 minutes to go. (2 Tabs per hl) After the boil the wort gets a 20 minute whirlpool. At the finish of the whirlpool there is a rest to allow the trub cone to form, before the casks are filled. The wort is still very hot when it goes into the cask, probably still over 90 degrees C. There is always a little bit of trub that settles out in the last few casks, so these casks are not sold. If there is going to be any cold break form, it will be in the cask.

When we were still in the shop at North Ryde we got a delivery of HOT Fresh Wort Kits. They didn't even have the labels on them. The next morning they were still warm, but it really didn't matter as they were all sold by lunch time! Simply add 5 litre of very cold water. Warm kits are pretty common as the demand for this product continues to grow. Its nice to know that the brew you are about to put down was still grain 36 hrs ago. I wonder how long those cans sit on the shelf at Woolies?
Cheers
Gerard

 

[Borret]

Ray has indicated that he no longer uses a chiller at all and the benefit is that he has one less piece of equipment that needs sanitising.
MAH

[post="115493"][/post]​

-1 chiller + 1 cube = same number of pieces of equipment.

Brent

 

[warrenlw63]

I am a bit dubious myself to Ross. The one ESB fresh wort kit I used had no break material in the bottom. perhaps they are cooled and filtered and then raised to Pasteurisation temps for packaging???

[post="114878"][/post]​

Maybe they centrifuge the hot wort? Not 100% certain however this is meant to remove the break, hops & trub from the hot wort? :unsure:

Warren -

[post="114880"][/post]​

At the finish of the whirlpool there is a rest to allow the trub cone to form,

[post="115519"][/post]​

Told yas so!

Warren -

 

[apd]

-1 chiller + 1 cube = same number of pieces of equipment.

Brent

[post="115523"][/post]​

Not if you use one of your existing fermenters or ferment direct in your boiler!

 

[user 384]

-1 chiller + 1 cube = same number of pieces of equipment.

[post="115523"][/post]​

From boiler to fermenter. Lid on (I have a spare lid without a hole for the airlock). Let cool naturaly. Take off lid. Airate. Add yeast.

One less piece of equipment.

Cheers
MAH