The "no Chiller" Method

[Darren]

I'm curious about the DMS thing, because everything that I've read says that you WILL get DMS doing this.

I'm going to think out loud here and get to the point sometime ... please take this with a grain of salt I'm an expert in nothing.

Commercial breweries can over oxygenate their worts because with the large volumes they brew in, pressure can build up at the bottom of their vessel (with the weight of all the liquid on top) and the oxygen will oversaturate the wort. On a homebrew scale this is very hard to do, as the oxygen at the bottom of the vessel only has to fight the liquid weight of 20 Litres, so it will easily leave the liquid as long as there's not too much head pressure.

I wonder if the DMS thing works on a similar basis. Is it possible that on a homebrew scale it is easier for the DMS to leave the liquid due to reduced volumes / pressures. So an extended cooling period produces less DMS for a homebrewer than it would for a commercial brewer?

Or does the fact that people are slow cooling in a sealed environment mean that if DMS was there, it would stay there.

Could someone with a good understanding of the DMS life cycle comment?

[post="115640"][/post]​

Boots,
Good question. I don't know the answer. Do you think the oxygen is combining with the dimethyl compound? Maybe.

Have you tasted or smelled DMS?

If you haven't the best time to "smell" it is just as the boil is coming to. Stick your head in the kettel (beware of the heat) and have a "sniff" of the steam. Once you have smelled it you will never forget it.

cheers
Darren

 

[warrenlw63]

Stick your head in the kettel (beware of the heat) and have a "sniff" of the steam. Once you have smelled it you will never forget it.

cheers
Darren

[post="115653"][/post]​

That's a worrying habit you've developed yourself there Darren. :blink:

Warren -

 

[Doc]

As previously stated at the Braidwood Real Ale brewday we put the wort into cubes at ~70 degC and then transferred to fermenters over the following weeks without any issues.
I've done a number of ESB wort kits (when stock are low around March every year) and have never had a problem with them.
So the method is valid if you attend to your sanitation.

Doc

 

[Uncle Fester]

Just one last thing on this silly topic.
You people have of course heard of the organisms that THRIVE on anaerobic (no oxygen) conditions. Now they will make you sick.

cheers
Darren

[post="115639"][/post]​

True. There are many anaerobic organisms out there. However, there are far fewer anaerobic organisms out there that can survive 90 minutes of pasteurisation followed by an overnight cool from 100 degrees to room temp.

I would guess that there are also organisms out there that are resistant to sodium met or iodophor or beer line cleaner as well. However they don't have a great affect on our results. (Although occasionally one seems to cop a dose of a super bug that won't go away).

M

Ps: I would hardly call this topic "silly"

Seems to be backed up by Market practice and heaps of success.

 

[dicko]

With the utmost respect to all that have commented on this thread and the other one re "hot wort" for that matter, I was told by an experienced brewer on this board that when I whirlpooled my wort I should put the lid on the kettle while it settles so as to eliminate "nasties" from the wort.
Now, considering that I tend to leave the lid of my kettle on my wort while it is whirlpooling for at least 15 minutes and then this same lid remains on the hot wort while the March pump is pushing 50 litres of near to boiling wort through the CFWC, I observe that the lid is on for about 35 to 40 mins in total.
How much DMS have I introduced to my beer during this period with the lid on the kettle?
Before receiving this valued advice on whirlpooling and keeping the lid on the kettle I used to just leave the lid off and pump the wort through the CFWC.
I will be honest and say that I have not tasted one bit of difference in my beers.
Now I am not an expert and I admit that I don't make a lot of light coloured lagers but I am now wondering would my procedure of having the lid on the kettle at a time when the wort is extremely hot, cause DMS and I just can't taste it??
This is IMO the most interesting topic that has come from this forum in recent times and I am now waiting patiently for the brew I didn't run through my CFWC on the weekend to taste how it turns out!
Cheers and waiting patiently,

 

[Gerard_M]

I think if you are producing wort (not in a sterile clean room) and selli9ng you COULD read COULD be asking for trouble.
Please try and reform your thinking on this type of procedure.

cheers
Darren

[post="115647"][/post]​

Darren
You have gone all Tom Cruise on us.
Oh & can you please show me how to sterilise a room!
Hard enough to find a brewery floor that drains properly.

 

[Joel]

http://www.abtonline.com/dms.html

Not a bad little read on the formation of DMS.

With good sanitation practices and a little care, there is probably less danger from getting sick from beer made this way (or in any way) than there is in eating reheated chicken.

 

[Guest Lurker]

Have you tasted or smelled DMS?

If you haven't the best time to "smell" it is just as the boil is coming to. Stick your head in the kettel (beware of the heat) and have a "sniff" of the steam. Once you have smelled it you will never forget it.

cheers
Darren

[post="115653"][/post]​

Now, given Darren is the resident AHB safety officer and suggester that stands will fall over, and autoclaves will blow up, this post surprises me. I work on mine sites where I get in big trouble for doing dangerous stuff, so I love to live on the edge on brew day. But...sticking my head in the kettle, just as it is foaming up to the boil? Actually, yes I did, once, and was lucky to retain the sight in my right eye, I got it closed just as the mud pool spat flew up, and just burnt my eye lid.

 

[dicko]

http://www.abtonline.com/dms.html

Not a bad little read on the formation of DMS.

With good sanitation practices and a little care, there is probably less danger from getting sick from beer made this way (or in any way) than there is in eating reheated chicken.

[post="115668"][/post]​

A good read Joel,
Thanks for the link.
I hope this topic doesn't turn into a battle between the supporters of each side of this subject, but instead, have some positive input regarding both sides of the argument.
I would like to ask if any of the last years successful brewers in the brewing competitions used this method when they presented their entries?
I would be interested to hear if any entrants in genuine Aussie HB comps last year have received result sheets indicating DMS or any other problems when they have used this no chill method?
Come on now! lets tell it as it is, so that we can all make a positive and informed decision on this method.
Comments from successful comp entrants would be appreciated.
Cheers

 

[Kai]

The time it takes wort to cool from hot (45 degree C) to ferment temp is considerable and is the most likely time you will pick up infection.

Like I've said, I don't think there is a sufficient quantity of microorganisms left in the wort for an infection to take hold in the time it takes to cool in a cube; provided the tap, racking hose and cuve are sufficiently cleaned and sanitised. And you're not going to pick up a new infection because it's a sealed environment.

I haven't noticed DMS in my beers, but that's not to say it's not there. Dicko also raises a good question about leaving the kettle covered for extended periods after the boil.

Just one last thing on this silly topic.
You people have of course heard of the organisms that THRIVE on anaerobic (no oxygen) conditions. Now they will make you sick.

cheers
Darren

[post="115639"][/post]​

I've been pondering this one, but I don't think it's very likely. The number one critter that springs to mind is botulinum, of which spores obviously will survive the boil. The factors I've considered include:

1 O2 pickup when racking from kettle to cube, and whether that's enough to inhibit botulinum growth

2 The presence of hops and the antimicrobial effects they have.

3 The lag time involved in botulinum growth and toxin production. While it's only a small amount of toxin required, are other bacteria going to grow first, and/or produce gas or other visible signs of activity? This is, of course, assuming points 1 and 2 are not enough to retard botulinum.

4 The fact that as far as I know there's no reported cases of botulism traced back to toxins formed in beer wort. Homebrewers have used stored jars of wort for starters for a long time, it's even suggested in a few books on home brewing. While that doesn't automatically make it safe, I haven't heard of any cases of people keeling over because of it. Of course, there's a first for everything, but I won't be losing much sleep.

 

[warrenlw63]

...and they did recycle condoms back in the days when they made connies of pig gut, and didn't know better.

Seth out

[post="115673"][/post]​

So that's where the saying "A pig in a poke" comes from? :lol:

Kai.

I think if the cube is filled with minimal or no headspace there wouldn't be too much to worry about. If any one's contemplating trying hot-packing their wort into cubes a sustained blast of CO2 from their kegging setup would probably give a little peace of mind.

As for lids on kettles give me some risk of DMS over bacterial infections any day when I'm immersion chilling wort for anywhere up to 45 minutes.

One last point and I'm not sure if it's really relevant, some brewers advocate the use of some sodium met in their mashes. What benefits would be derived from say 1/4 of a teaspoon of the stuff being added to the hot-packed wort before the lid goes on the cube? It's supposed to be an anti-oxidant IIRC. Would this prevent the chances of anything untoward growing in the unpitched wort? :unsure:

Warren -

 

[Kai]

Dazza's talking about critters that do grow in the absence of oxygen, warren. Though you do bring up a good point -- I think some of them don't like high concentrations of CO2 either.

 

[T.D.]

One last point and I'm not sure if it's really relevant, some brewers advocate the use of some sodium met in their mashes. What benefits would be derived from say 1/4 of a teaspoon of the stuff being added to the hot-packed wort before the lid goes on the cube? It's supposed to be an anti-oxidant IIRC. Would this prevent the chances of anything untoward growing in the unpitched wort? :unsure:

Warren -

[post="115684"][/post]​

I know they use it like its going out of style in the wine industry. Chuck a bit in here, chuck a bit in there etc etc. They use it to reduce oxygenation. I doubt it would harm, but all the same I probably wouldn't bother.


And just a general comment on all of this...
I get the impression a bit in this topic that the stuff that is attracting the most focus may be some of the least important issues. Surely there are (should be) greater potential risks influencing our decisions whether or not to use this no-chiller method than things like DMS - something that only a few people can even detect anyway. I'll say one thing that I will never "reform my thinking" on, I will take a potential (even speculative) risk of something like DMS turning up in my beer, that I probably won't taste anyway, any day ahead of the much more real threat of airborn bacteria landing in my wort during the 30min+ chilling process. We all like to solve brewing related problems here - that's kind of the point of this forum in some respects, and I think its great. But I think sometimes we are in danger of putting way too much emphasis on issues that require relatively little attention.

In my opinion, you can't argue with something as successful as the fresh wort kits. The EXACT way they are done is what we are discussing here. We have probably all tried them and agree that they are a quality product. Furthermore, they have been around for ages and have stood the test of time. I have not once heard anybody make any criticisms of them that are in line with what has been discussed above.

Yeesh, I know its only 8am, but I think I need a beer... :blink:

 

[warrenlw63]

Dazza's talking about critters that do grow in the absence of oxygen, warren. Though you do bring up a good point -- I think some of them don't like high concentrations of CO2 either.

[post="115686"][/post]​

Kai.

I thought for the brewers crazy enough to have their wort sitting unpitched for numerous weeks a bit of sodium met may have a preservative effect. That said I think it needs an acid environment to kill bugs.

At least it may work in a positive way in regards to absorbing O2.

Warren -

 

[Gough]

I can see the merits of both sides of this debate, and may at some future time try the 'no chiller' method should a starter fail or such like. Just out of interest though, how many of us have had problems with post boil contamination occuring during the chilling phase of brewday? I always brew outside in the elements, and in nearly two years of fortnightly all grain brew sessions I'm yet (touch wood) to pick up an infection - my only previous infection was in a K+K brew years ago. I use an immersion chiller. Given it has happened to others and is bound to happen to me someday, how many of us can trace the problem to the 20-30 minutes we spend chilling our wort? Surely convenience would be the reason for moving to the 'no chiller' method should people choose to rather than fear of chilling related infections?

Shawn.

 

[warrenlw63]

Shawn.

I spend up to 60 minutes. 30 mins water & about the same with a pond pump chilling my wort. I've never picked up an infection this way either.

I got paranoid about 3 years ago transferring brewing from the laundry (inside) to brewing in the very draughty asbestos wonder of a garage h34r: and touch wood I've never had a problem either. That said (DMS risk or not) I make sure the top of the boiler is as close to completely covered as I can humanly manage.

Hey! Maybe we can fashion a hermetically-sealed oxygen tent for some. (Settle down Darren I'm only joking) :blink:

Way of the future! :lol:

Warren -

 

[dicko]

Surely convenience would be the reason for moving to the 'no chiller' method should people choose to rather than fear of chilling related infections?

Shawn.

[post="115697"][/post]​

Yes Shawn, convenience and improved time management in my brewery is the sole reason of my enthusiasm for trying this method.
I use a CFWC and I have had one only beer that I had to tip out :angry:
and as far as I could tell, that infection came from a yeast slurry that I used which IMO was getting a bit tired and lag time was excessive.
I am extremely pleased with the informed posts on this topic and as time goes on I'm sure we will get some true and accurate results on this subject.
Cheers

 

[dicko]

Another advantage may be for any newbie to AG reading this, may opt for this method (if proven successful) so as to eliminate the need for a chiller of any kind and, dare I say it, they may not even need a March Pump.

Ah! Would they still be a "real brewer"??

Cheers

 

[Batz]

That's another thing
I have a 90lt kettle,the lid is mostly on,just a gap for steam to excape.
If I did not do this all my wort would boil off
Now the condensation that drips back into the boil,it this not distilled water?

Batz

 

[Gough]

Surely convenience would be the reason for moving to the 'no chiller' method should people choose to rather than fear of chilling related infections?

Shawn.

[post="115697"][/post]​

Yes Shawn, convenience and improved time management in my brewery is the sole reason of my enthusiasm for trying this method.
I use a CFWC and I have had one only beer that I had to tip out :angry:
and as far as I could tell, that infection came from a yeast slurry that I used which IMO was getting a bit tired and lag time was excessive.
I am extremely pleased with the informed posts on this topic and as time goes on I'm sure we will get some true and accurate results on this subject.
Cheers

[post="115708"][/post]​

Thanks for that Dicko and Warren. Convenience/time issues would be the major reason I'd try it, although I am happy enough with my brewday as is at the moment. Like I said in an earlier post though, I might give it a go should need arise at some time in the future. I was just a bit surprised that the reasoning seemed to be running that infection control was the major benefit to be gained.

Shawn.