The "no Chiller" Method

[Borret]

I agree that this idea has it's merit and have enjoyed the discussion from both sides. The way I see it though is there is still no room for sloppy brewing habbits. Failing to observe the cleanliness rituals that you normally would employ will still put you at greater risk of disaster. :unsure: Failing to admit that is only kidding yorself as you will be the one drinking the resulting beers.
But we all tread our own paths and some brew at levels others wouldn't be happy with..... but we all are all still making beer. If it seems more convenient then give it a go. As others have said I don't feel the need at this point but might try it down the track, particularly once the result from the pioneers are in.
For newbies it is definately an option I would be trying if put in a position of weighing up budget versus starting to make better beers.

Batz as for distilled water. I believe this is only if there are no other voaltiles that that will condense at the same point. As we are not running tiered distillation towers on top of our kettles like they do to distill the various grades of oil based fuels, then I belive you are indeed getting more than just pure H2O drop back in. As to whether this poses a problem then who knows. Judging by the dynamics of a classic copper brewery kettle.... I'm guessing not

Brent

 

[user 384]

A couple of points.

DMS
If only 20% of people can taste it and you happen to be the part of the other 80% who can't taste it, then why even bother trying to eliminate it. I say this because as homebrewers, we are basically making beers for ourselves and if you can't taste it, then it doesn't matter. If you want to win competitions or impress the other 20% of people, then go ahead and do all you can to eliminate DMS.

The "Nay Sayers"
It's interesting that the majority of those who are suggesting that you try the no chiller method have practical experience by either making their own no chiller wort or having fermented a fresh wort kit. These people are reporting their actual successes. The nay sayers seem to be preaching from the bible without putting their faith to the test. If you absolutely think that it's a crock, then don't try it, but this topic has developed into a discussion of what would be the best approach if you do want to try the no chiller way. I agree with earlier comments and hope this thread keeps openly discussing pros and cons on the procedure, without blanket staements on whether or not it will work.

Infections
It's been said that a possible source of infection is from anerobic bacteria. Again current home brew practices suggest that this is not a significant problem. Those people that pre-prepare starter wort and store in bottles would be able to give some insights on the success of avoiding infections.

No substitute for good sanitation practices
As many have pointed out, the no chiller method should not be seen as an opportunity to cut back on the need to maintain a sanitary brewing environment. The hot wort into a cube might be enough to pasturise the container, but on a home brew scale, it takes bugger all effort to give a cube a good rinse with whatever sanitiser you use.

Benefits
It's becoming clear that the 2 major benefits are for new extract or AG brewers who might not have a chiller. If the no chiller method is viable, then it might encourge more brewers as they don't need as much start-up gear. The other benefit is that it has the pottential make your brewing more flexible. You might have the time to brew a couple of batches, but not the space to ferment them all at once or whatever variation on this theme.

Let's keep exploring the idea with an open mind, have people report their results and if it fails....... then shelve it as a silly idea.

Cheers
MAH

 

[Trent]

Quite an interesting topic, and well argued. I myself would find it pretty difficult to go against the tide with my comments, not having tried it, so I wont say too much till I have tried it. I currently use a cfwc, and I love it, so may not be trying the no chill method any time soon, but will definietly give it a go one day. My only question, however, is how long have people been doing it, and if it is a reasonable time (6 months to a year), do they still have any beers left of their original batches, and how did they perform over time? I like to leave my bigger beers for a while, and leave at least a few of my regular beers for 6-12 months if possible, and would be concerned about the long term stability of the beer. I thought that was another reason we are supposed to chill quickly, but I have been wrong before, so would like to hear back about that. Not that it should stop anybody doing it, most batches are gone in a month or 2 anyway!
All the best
Trent

 

[big d]

Great topic thus far.I enjoy my brew day.Time is not an issue and at this stage neither is water usage.This will change later on in the year when i move and rely on tank water.
I find the answer pretty simple in the pros and cons camp.
Two brews each the same recipe and methods used except one will be chiller cooled the other into a cube and cooled.
Complete the cycle as per normal routine and when the finished product is ready compare against each other.Theres your answer.If no discernable difference then its a no brainer.
I will sit on the fence with an open mind until i try the no-chiller method.

cheers
big d

 

[sluggerdog]

I'll be giving this one a crack for sure however it's no real benefit to me unless I do not have the fridge free or the yeast ready, it does give me a chance to brew on those off weekends when a lager is bubbling away in the fridge.

One thing I do ask is should the cube be full? I have either a 25 litre cube or 15 litre cube and I like to make 20 litre batches?

 

[berto]

Hi all,
Ive been following this thread, but as yet have not made a post. slack i know. Especially as i have been doing this in a way for teh past 12 months of partials and now AG. I dont have a chiller of any kind, nor do i see the need to go down that path with the results i am getting. I should try a steam beer or similar so i can taste infections and flaws easily given there is a lack of malt and hop flavour in there.

The only difference to my style at the moment is i drop it straight into the fermenter and then just pitch into there 2 days later or so when it has cooled sufficiently. I have been trying to do this as quick as possible due to all the hype about needing to pitch soon to reduce the risk of infection.

I would be keen to whip up in drums and store it for a few weeks before pitching given that it would allow me to make an ale and lager on the same day, yet ferment at different times due to having only 1 fermentation fridge.

I have a few bottles of an ESB im willing to let some of the sydney guys taste to see how they feel about it. May even drop one in to weizguy next time im up near the swamp. Id rather get objective opinions from people who have more knowledge about tasting these beers and what flavours should and shouldnt be there. Shoot me a pm if you want a try. Its likely it will be my Xmas in July beer too, so any suggestions greatly appreciated. I dont wanna go giving too much of it away, so the first few can score a bottle each or so to see how it runs.

Also have an APA and Kolsch in secondary fermented using this method which would be interesting to have people taste.

Hope this mindless ramble has provided some insight to someone out there.

Cheers, Rob

 

[vlbaby]

This is interesting thread guys. I've been following everyones comments and have yet to make up my mind as yet.

One question regarding the DMS issue has popper into my head ( doesn't happen very often) . Is a boiling wort a never ending source of DMS? All the literature points to not covering the kettle so that this DMS does not fall back into the wort. This is understandable, i guess, but after the wort has been boiled hard for 1 - 2 hours surely there is no more DMS to produce? There must be some point were all the wort capacity to produce this by product are exhausted!

I like a few other brewers like to cover the kettle during wort chilling. I am not sure if I have or havent experienced DMS before as I'm not completely sure what it is meant to be. But I sure as hell would prefer not to produce beer that has this quality even if i'm in the 80% that cannot taste it.

I'm keen to try the no chiller method myself, the reason being I dont trust the sanitatiin level of my CFWC. A cube on the other hand can be washed , inspected for visible signs of cleanliness, sanitised, and filled with piping hot wort as a final sanitation. To me the odds of infection in this setup are very favourable.
However the DMS issue still worries me.

Can anyone confirm if hot wort can endlessly produce DMS?

cheers

vl.



edit spalling errers

 

[Ray_Mills]

Hi
Lets look at the extract brewer for a change.
The reason is I will be having an old mate coming over tomorrow nite and he has tried the K & K brewing and wants to go to the next step.
All he needs is a few extra bits of equipment.
1. a keg to boil in
2. a three ring burner
3. a 20l wort plasic wort drum.

It takes him say 30 to 45 min to get the wort to the boil
boils for 60 min
rests for 15
Then into the drum.

The extract brewer has a brew day of around 2 hours at the most.
The no chiller will make the new or K & K brewer thinking of moving to the next step. Giving him or her better beers

Just some thoughts
Cheers
Ray

 

[Tony]

Very true ray.

I have not tried this method yet but will soon. I think it will help with flexability.

One thing i thought of was being able to do 2 brews in one day. While the first is boiling the second is mashing. No fun if doing tripple decoctions but a couple of pale ales for the keg would be a sinch..

The first gets chilled and put in a firmenter with yeast and brewed, the second gets run into the cubes and left to sit in the corner.

When the first is done, rack it to secondary and just dump the second brew i did on the yeast and keep going.

Big time saver.

You could keep your first generation teast going for weeks

I have had a fair few beers get into the top 3 at big comps and i have never covered my kettle when chilling. I just turn off the gas and give it a stir over the chiller every few min to cool it quicker.

But cant coment on the no chiller method just yet.

I cant see any problems though.

Sometimes i think people wory too much.

cheers

 

[Dunkel_Boy]

Finally!! Phew... 11 pages is a big job.

By the way, I'm back, if anybody missed me (no?).


I'm surprised that the cold break comes out of suspension as readily just leaving it sit there than shock-cooling it, but then again 30 minutes isn't exactly shock cooling, so that might explain it. I would have thought that was decent science in action right there... hang on, it's just a function of temperature isn't it? Not rate of temperature loss?

Sorry for thinking out loud - so much easier than typing cohesively.


Adrian

 

[Kai]

Dazza's talking about critters that do grow in the absence of oxygen, warren. Though you do bring up a good point -- I think some of them don't like high concentrations of CO2 either.

[post="115686"][/post]​

Kai.

I thought for the brewers crazy enough to have their wort sitting unpitched for numerous weeks a bit of sodium met may have a preservative effect. That said I think it needs an acid environment to kill bugs.

At least it may work in a positive way in regards to absorbing O2.

Warren -

[post="115695"][/post]​

Ah, gotcha wazza. Because you mentioned sod met's antioxidant qualities it didn't occur to me that you were referring to its bacteriostatic ones.

 

[tangent]

i thought the wort had to cool sufficiently before the cube plastic was safe to introduce 80C+ heat?

 

[big d]

Its got me beat.
If brewers are so hung up on the length of a brew day why are you bothered with brewing your own beer.This topic is about a different method but is slowly swinging to a time saving method.I love my brewday.I couldnt care less about 5-10 minutes saving.Big deal.Try it and see the outcome.
Enjoy the day a few beers a different method what ever.Brewing rocks and i cant get enough of it.

cheers
big d

 

[Dunkel_Boy]

The number 1 reason I'm interested is the water saving. I've always thought of this... spiral or plate Hx's, etc, but have also thought of good old time - now I have a way to do it! Very happy that 85% of the water I put into beer is going to beer! Now I just have to recondense my water lost through evaporation in the boil...

What effects would pumping liquid nitrogen (very small amount, carefully) into hot wort do? Nitrogen is inert (moreso than CO2), but may be unsuitable for bacteria, etc. Again, thinking bigger than I ought to, but the gas could be recovered - if it didn't all remain dissolved - and used for carbonation down the track, if one were so inclined. Or something else requiring an inert atmosphere. Bad idea? Don't worry about cost.

 

[redbeard]

what a HUGE thread ! ive been thinking about double batches & now i see this as a good way to do it. the 1st 20l will go via the cfcw thingy into the fermentor & the remainder into a cube, to ferment when the 1st has been racked.

as to dms, i had the impression from reading here that most/all was boiled off during the 1st 60mins.

i think if the no chill method becomes popularly acceptable, it could bring in a few k&k converts to ag brewing by limiting the equipment/investment needed.

it would be interesting to combine long/overnight mashing, with no chiller to give an ag procedure to those brewers with small time blocks. could attract some more k&k types

cheers
cm

edit - :9s/available/needed/

 

[crozdog]

Top thread guys.

i've been considering this method for 6+ months, but even more now that the AG setup is closer.

For those interested in using this method & need cubes, have a look at this mob I've found here in Sydney (Mt Druitt) - plastic drum recyclers. You can find em on ebay as well, just do a search for "plastic drum".

They have cubes for $5-$10 as well as 60L drums for $20 which I reckon would be easy to convert into a big fermentor for those double batches (much cheaper than the $75 that a LHBS quoted me!)

In addition they have 200l & 1000l containers which would make cheap rain tanks.

No affiliation etc.

Crozdog

 

[Kai]

Agreed, warren. Those smells can be a bugger to get out.

 

[warrenlw63]

'Twas the Aceobacter that had me more or less worried Kai. However yes, gherkin beer would not be particularly pleasing. h34r:

Warren -

 

[Borret]

Except the smell. Got a subway gerkin bucket. 1 year on and many different potions and lotions when I got it.... still stinks.. :lol:

Brent

 

[AndrewQLD]

'Twas the Aceobacter that had me more or less worried Kai. However yes, gherkin beer would not be particularly pleasing. h34r:

Warren -

[post="115935"][/post]​

Too right Warren

The bacterium which ferments pickles and kraut is extremely harmful to your beer, and if it should infect your beer equipment it may be impossible to get rid of it.

From Here Bodensatz
Not something I would like within Coo-ee of my brewery.

Cheers
Andrew