The "no Chiller" Method

[Darren]

If you are to continually place hot wort into the same container and allow it to cool, you will quite effectively select for bacteria that will grow under those conditions. Stand up Mr Clostridium! (its lethal like AIDS too)

Would you not also be risking this if you used the same sanitisation method each time? You would be grooming for a bleach/Iodophor/Sodium Met bacterial resistance?

I guess the key is HOT wort. If the wort is packed into a cleaned and steralised container at above pasteurisation temps, then the total environment is sterile?

"Nothing comes of Nothing"
King Lear

M

[post="116677"][/post]​

Bleach is a strong oxidising agent and would be extremely difficult to develop resistance too. Bleach isn't always acceptable , SSteel is one example.
Hot wort isn't enough to kill the "bugs" because spores will easily survive 110 deg C. (Not all bacteria produce spores) Added to this Clostridium sp. favour an oxygen deficient enviroment (anaerobic organisms), which you will have if the wort has just been boiled. Slowly cooled and stored wort is perfect for this particular bug which produces a flavourless toxin

That is the reason for canning of jams etc, you need heat and pressure to kill the spores.

cheers
Darren

 

[crozdog]

All this talk about infections, micro-organisms, bugs & resistance made me try to think outside the square. What i came up with is:

What about alcohol ie ethanol? Isn't it one of the best known bug killers / sterilisers? After all we use Isowipes or similar alcohol wipes to sterilise benches etc when we're making slants etc & I believe it has been used in medicine for ages.

Would the use of pure alcohol from the chemist work as part of a cyclic sanitising / sterilising regime? What about vodka?

Now if anyone had one of those stills you see in all the LHBS & happened to use it for producing alcohol for sterilisation of hot wort drums, I guess that would still be considered illicit / illegal by the authorities ..... not that I'd encourage that.... h34r:

Crozdog

 

[mongo]

oh fer Pete's sake Darren.

you said:
"Hot wort isn't enough to kill the "bugs" because spores will easily survive 110 deg C."

so you must be really concerned about infections in your kettle, as it can only get to 100deg C, and never sees any bleach. We are all going to die.

Cmon Darren. Let it go.

 

[markws]

Lads,

As a person in the medical field I can tell you most homebrewers probably are cleaner in there brewing technique than what most laboratory scientific staff would be on a good day.

I would not be concerned about clostridium bacteria in my wort, however good personal and equipment sanitation/cleaniness on your brew day will reduce the % of contamination to only a few percentage points. Combine this with a decent yeast pitch and it will drop to nothing. My only comment would be if personal contamination is a concern - buy some disposable gloves when you are doing your brew day - a couple of dollars may provide peace of mind!

Really I think what most of people are trying to say on this thread is - here is an alternative to not using a chiller - there are some possible minor disadvantages (such as contamination) to the protocol however, it could definately add a lot of value to most peoples brewing practice. If you try it - take small steps.

Kind Regards

MWS

 

[Darren]

oh fer Pete's sake Darren.

you said:
"Hot wort isn't enough to kill the "bugs" because spores will easily survive 110 deg C."

so you must be really concerned about infections in your kettle, as it can only get to 100deg C, and never sees any bleach. We are all going to die.

Cmon Darren. Let it go.

[post="116718"][/post]​

Mongo,No I am not. It is rapidly chilled and oxygenated and then fermented quickly. Alcohol presence protects it from then on.

cheers
Darren

 

[T.D.]

oh fer Pete's sake Darren.

you said:
"Hot wort isn't enough to kill the "bugs" because spores will easily survive 110 deg C."

so you must be really concerned about infections in your kettle, as it can only get to 100deg C, and never sees any bleach. We are all going to die.

Cmon Darren. Let it go.

[post="116718"][/post]​

Mongo,No I am not. It is rapidly chilled and oxygenated and then fermented quickly. Alcohol presence protects it from then on.

cheers
Darren

[post="116737"][/post]​

I know Alcohol is an excellent bug inhibitor, but if it is that much better than all of the sterilisers we are using in brewing, why don't we all just sterilise our fermenters and other equipment with ethanol??? This is all becoming a very circular argument. I am content with the no chiller method at this stage. If I grow an extra arm or leg (wouldn't be all bad ) I'll consider going back to my immersion chiller. Until then, I think I'll bow out of this debate for a while. I don't think there is much to be gained from continually presenting all of our respective opinions on the method. One final comment though, it does strike me that all of the people who do not support this method are the same people who have never tried it. All of the people who do support it have tried it and are happy with the results. Doesn't that say it all? That is, unless these "bugs" are physiologically causing the human brain to become more optimistic and less discerning...

 

[Darren]

TD wrote
"I know Alcohol is an excellent bug inhibitor, but if it is that much better than all of the sterilisers we are using in brewing, why don't we all just sterilise our fermenters and other equipment with ethanol??? "

That is quite simple. Ethanol attracts and excise (making it expensive) and is not a particularly good sanitiser.
What you guys are missing is that Clostridium species occupy a very specific "niche". This niche is very rare in food production. They thrive on lots of sugar, and no oxygen (just exactly what you are proposing as "cutting" edge of brewing science).

They will not make your beer undrinkable as the toxin they produce is tasteless, so you won't feel inclined to pour it out. You just die two days later.
Brewing isn't a new invention and you will probably find 2-300 years ago they found that wort stored without oxygen kills people. I guess history repeats is a catch cry. My only suggestion is that if you feel inclined not to pitch your yeast within a week and then decide to at a later date and you have pressure in the tank, just ditch it (or try it on the cat).

The reason that "botulism" doesn't occur in beer is because the presence of 2-5% alcohol that will inhibit growth.

Go on re-invent the wheel at your own peril. Any other microbiologists want to comment on this?

cheers
darren

 

[Gerard_M]

Darren
Explain the success of the ESB Fresh Wort Kit. I haven't had any customers die yet, but having read your posts I feel I may need to take my suit to the dry cleaners!
Cheers
Gerard

 

[tangent]

OK let's walk a line down the middle:

YES - food safety is no laughing matter
YES - a home-made immersion chiller or ice bath is too easy for excuse! (i live in a flat, my parents don't let me use electricity, i went to Uni, i'm a fat f*^k, my religion excludes me from chilling anything...etc.)
YES - all-grain is easier than it sounds, what's the big deal!? People stupider than you with less gear are doing it every weekend!

OK, no middle ground so far.

edit - i think the effects of heating plastics past their safe levels and consuming the results could take more than a few days to see results. I can hear the bosses now "i've been working with asbestos for 2 years and never had a problem...."

Basic food guidelines are given for a reason, as are plastics useage recommendations.

 

[Dunkel_Boy]

Hey guys,
Im not an engineer or an electrician but I have heard that it doesn't matter which wire goes where, or the strength of the materials needed to make a high rise apartment building.
Should save some time and cost too.

cheers
Darren

[post="116863"][/post]​

Pfft, civil "engineering" and electrical *cough* "engineering"... you'll find that the statements you made about wires and tensile strength ring very true in those industries (except for Tony)...

Meanwhile, isn't homebrew sanitation all about paranoia? Can't we basically get away with just washing our stuff with clean water and still make good, clean, safe beer? Then we go sodium met or bleach pickle solution, don't breathe on the wort, use a CO2 blanket for any wort transfers, have a sprayer of sodium met solution handy, dip hands in sodium met solution, etc.

So now onto my point... don't we essentially expose ourselves to the same risk just by making homebrew, whether we chill it in 30 minutes or 3 days? Clostridium looks very serious - as DWS(?) said, just how likely is it to make it into our brews? I would say that if it wanted to be there, it would - whether we chill quickly or slowly. What about the yeast... would it not eat the clostridium? Or would the oxidation/aeration not essentially kill it all (through suffocation? )?

I would still get the wort down to temp ASAP if I did the "no Steve" method, but I still think you're being slightly paranoid.

Last post...


Adrian

 

[Kai]

The last time I checked, HDPE is rated to withstand boiling temperatures with no ill-effect.

2-300 years ago I'll bet they discovered that stored wort spoiled long before giving them botulism.

I am still curious to know what botulinum's oxygen tolerance is and what the DO levels in wort in a cube are, because it's certainly not an oxygen free environment. I am also curious as to your opinion on how long it would take the bacteria to mutate enough to acquire resistance to hop antimicrobial compounds, and how likely it really is to survive in a well cleaned and sanitised vessel.

Overall, by my reckoning the odds of catching botulism from slow-cooled wort is approximately equal to a fart in a hurricane, and I haven't seen any real evidence to count against that.

 

[user 384]

That is the reason for canning of jams etc, you need heat and pressure to kill the spores.

[post="116690"][/post]​

Oh no I can't believe I'm still alive. I've been eating my mums home made jam for 35 years and she hasn't taken the time to can it, then heat it under pressure. My negligent mother has only been boiling the jam, then adding it while still at pasturisation temperatures to sanitised jars (jars are sanitised by cleaning then boiling, which also helps to stop them cracking when the hot jam is added). Why does this sound surprisingly similar to the no-chiller method. And guess what, I haven't died from anaerobic bacteria toxins. Not bad considering I eat homemade jam or lemon curd almost every day.

In the US they often include the added step of boiling the filled jars in a pan of water. This is because they use specific types of jars where the lids allow for a vacum to form. The extra step of creating a vacum in the headspace helps prevent mould growth.

Neither method uses pressure.

Maybe we're not reinventing the wheel after all.

Cheers
MAH

 

[apd]

Hey guys,
Im not an engineer or an electrician but I have heard that it doesn't matter which wire goes where, or the strength of the materials needed to make a high rise apartment building.
Should save some time and cost too.

cheers
Darren

[post="116863"][/post]​

Darren,

You really do love your over-the-top, off-the-mark analogies don't you!

Seriously though, with regard to Clostridium, not being a microbiologist I thought I'd do a little research. Some links:

wikipedia: Clostridium botulinum
A patent regarding hop extract used to prevent Clostrdium difficile growth
Butyric Acid Off-Flavors in Beer: Origins and Control (PDF)

Most of this stuff went over my head. Dry as all hell. As I said, I am not a microbiologist.

Neverthesless, Darren is right in saying that there is a risk of Clostridium infection as its spores are not killed by temperature. But Clostridium has to battle against good hygiene (which we all have, of course), the preservative nature of hops, temperature, and once the wort is fermenting the alcohol produced.

Hence the risk of infection of a "no-chill" wort, while still present - like the risk of AIDS or falling victim to dodgy electrical work - is vastly reduce by environmental factors and good practice.

And again, as Gerard_M said, ESB has been doing this without any problems.

 

[Uncle Fester]

Hey guys,
Im not an engineer or an electrician but I have heard that it doesn't matter which wire goes where, or the strength of the materials needed to make a high rise apartment building.
Should save some time and cost too.

cheers
Darren

[post="116863"][/post]​

Darren,

You really do love your over-the-top, off-the-mark analogies don't you!

Seriously though, with regard to Clostridium, not being a microbiologist I thought I'd do a little research. Some links:

wikipedia: Clostridium botulinum
A patent regarding hop extract used to prevent Clostrdium difficile growth
Butyric Acid Off-Flavors in Beer: Origins and Control (PDF)

Most of this stuff went over my head. Dry as all hell. As I said, I am not a microbiologist.

Neverthesless, Darren is right in saying that there is a risk of Clostridium infection as its spores are not killed by temperature. But Clostridium has to battle against good hygiene (which we all have, of course), the preservative nature of hops, temperature, and once the wort is fermenting the alcohol produced.

Hence the risk of infection of a "no-chill" wort, while still present - like the risk of AIDS or falling victim to dodgy electrical work - is vastly reduce by environmental factors and good practice.

And again, as Gerard_M said, ESB has been doing this without any problems.

[post="116929"][/post]​

At risk of adding more fuel to this fire, the Wikipedia article does say that 25 mins @ 100 deg kills all of the strains listed (about 10 seconds for type E).

Further, fish is the greatest exponent of type E. Guess there are more that John West should reject?

M

 

[Trough Lolly]

FWIW, I believe the no chill method is fine, if you have good sanitary procedure under control in your brewroom - nothing new there, eh?!

As an alternative strategy to cut down the length of the brewday, I did an overnight mash. I'm talking about steeping grains, husks and all, in water thats well below 70C....Does this mean I'm gonna croak it? Of course not, since I boiled the hell out of the resultant extract and used sanitary procedures that I've had for the last 10 years - with not one infection....

After dinner Saturday night, I crushed the grains, fired up the HLT and doughed-in the mash - then it was off to the tele and a few beers...the next morning I sparged, boiled, chilled and was done and dusted before lunch....more beers! I will never brew until 3am again! I too have little kids and I have to grab the rare opportunity to brew with both hands!

One last thing - regardless of the somewhat theoretical assertions made in this thread, the fact is that the no-chill procedure works and that's not based on assertions, it's based on experience with ESB and home brewers...and that'll satisfy me enough to have a go.

Otherwise, don't sweat it, give up and stick to drinking VB.... :blink:

Cheers,
TL

 

[apd]

At risk of adding more fuel to this fire, the Wikipedia article does say that 25 mins @ 100 deg kills all of the strains listed (about 10 seconds for type E).

Further, fish is the greatest exponent of type E. Guess there are more that John West should reject?

M

[post="116940"][/post]​

M,

It kills the bug but not any spores. So, assuming there were spores in your wort to begin with you might still get an infection.

 

[RobW]

This has been a fascinating thread which I've kept out of until now. I was a microbiologist in a former life and I don't have a problem with the no chill method if the usual sanitary precautions are taken. As far as I'm concerned the proof is in the practice. We know ESB successfully sell fresh wort kits and we don't know of any brewers who have died from beer infected with botulism or any other food poisoning organisms - period. Even though Clostridium botulinum is a fairly common environmental organism it is still a relatively uncommon pathogen in food and apparently unknown in beer. So I reckon we shouldn't get too hung up on the theoretical possibilities but be governed by what works in practice.

Cold break? Well that's another story!

 

[Kai]

At risk of adding more fuel to this fire, the Wikipedia article does say that 25 mins @ 100 deg kills all of the strains listed (about 10 seconds for type E).

Further, fish is the greatest exponent of type E. Guess there are more that John West should reject?

M

[post="116940"][/post]​

Type E is easily killed. Types A and B, however, usually require around 1-3 minutes at 121.1C to reduce the spore numbers to a level considered safe. The way the thermal curves work, I doubt we achieve that at even 60 minutes at 100C. Although now I think of it, I ought to go look those values up again.

And when Darren mentioned jam, I'm sure it was just a mental slip on his part as I doubt he doesn't remember that botulinum does not grow in high acid foods and has difficulty in foods with low water activity too.

 

[Darren]

That is the reason for canning of jams etc, you need heat and pressure to kill the spores.

[post="116690"][/post]​

Oh no I can't believe I'm still alive. I've been eating my mums home made jam for 35 years and she hasn't taken the time to can it, then heat it under pressure. My negligent mother has only been boiling the jam, then adding it while still at pasturisation temperatures to sanitised jars (jars are sanitised by cleaning then boiling, which also helps to stop them cracking when the hot jam is added). Why does this sound surprisingly similar to the no-chiller method. And guess what, I haven't died from anaerobic bacteria toxins. Not bad considering I eat homemade jam or lemon curd almost every day.



Kai,
Not a big jam maker myself but the one time I did make jam I didn't add acid. Sure, the fruit would add acidity but I presume most people make jam with over ripe fruit that is actually quite sweet.
As for the lack of water, as you have probably googled, honey is the biggest cause of childhood botulism, suggesting that the bug will thrive in a high sugar/low water environment.

What you other guys are missing is not that I think the idea wont work. It is the storage of the product (without fermentation) that I suspect may cause some problem.

cheers
Darren

 

[Kai]

Kai,
Not a big jam maker myself but the one time I did make jam I didn't add acid. Sure, the fruit would add acidity but I presume most people make jam with over ripe fruit that is actually quite sweet.
As for the lack of water, as you have probably googled, honey is the biggest cause of childhood botulism, suggesting that the bug will thrive in a high sugar/low water environment.

What you other guys are missing is not that I think the idea wont work. It is the storage of the product (without fermentation) that I suspect may cause some problem.

cheers
Darren

[post="117281"][/post]​

Jam is not considered a risk for botulism and is considered a high acid food. It's a non-issue. [edit] even beer has a pH low enough to be out of C botulinum's growth range.

WRT the technique I don't think I missed your point at all. I just disagree with it.

PS Did you autoclave that jam?