The "no Chiller" Method

[Andyd]

An update on the debate from the BasicBrewingRadio podcast...

So far two negatives have been highlighted, which we've spoken about here.

The first was James, who saif that his major concern was that the cooling wort would draw ambient air into the storage vessle, carrying nasties with it. He went on to point out that a completely sealed vessle would be difficult to open since as the wort cools down you'll get a pressure differencial.

The second spoke about the production of DMS continuing while the wort is warm, not just while it's boiling. I guess the question is how much gets produced out of the boil and re-dissolves into the wort.

Hopefully there'll be more on this in coming weeks.

AndyD

 

[Stuster]

He went on to point out that a completely sealed vessle would be difficult to open since as the wort cools down you'll get a pressure differencial.

[post="117341"][/post]​

Is that why I can't open my beer? Or my jar of jam?

No problems opening the ESB worts myself.

In terms of the DMS, I think the research we've all done shows that it shouldn't be an issue.

MAH's continuing survival, as Kai says, may be due to the high acidity of jam. From the FDA again.

Acidic foods can be safely processed in a boiling-water canner because the combination of 212 F (100 C) heat and acidity will inactivate bacteria and spores. Some examples of high-acid foods include: all fruits (except figs), most tomatoes, jams, jellies, marmalades, fruit butters, and fermented and pickled (treated with brine or vinegar solution to inhibit the growth of microorganisms) vegetables, such as pickles and sauerkraut. Acidic foods (with a pH of 4.6 or lower) contain enough acidity to destroy bacteria more rapidly when heated.

Look, I think it's good that Darren has been wary of this method and has pointed out some possible dangers. It seems that practise has shown it to be effective. Overall, in Australia the risk seems small. From here

This is only the fourth case of botulism in Australia since 1996. All cases have been in infants aged less than one year.

So to all you under-one-year-old brewers out there, the no-chill method is out for you, ok.

 

[warrenlw63]

In the United States on average 110 cases are reported a year.

Pretty safe odds given their population that's nearing 300 million.

Warren -

 

[Kai]

They also have a fondness for canning things like black-eyed peas down south.

 

[Ken Man Do]

After reading 20 pages, I gotta add one thing. You can seal a sterile cooling vessel, yet eliminate the vacuum, by allowing filtered air into the headspace during cool-down. The vacuum is eliminated, as well as the anaerobic condition.

 

[Stuster]

This is only the fourth case of botulism in Australia since 1996. All cases have been in infants aged less than one year.

Quoting my own quote rather worringly.

I really think the botulism case is not that much of a problem for post-toddler brewers. Malt extract is not a suitable environment for botulism to grow in because of its high sugar content. I have read that over 50% sugar content inhibits botulism growth. Perhaps Kai/others could confirm that.

 

[Darren]

Malt extract is not a suitable environment for botulism to grow in because of its high sugar content. I have read that over 50% sugar content inhibits botulism growth. Perhaps Kai/others could confirm that.

[post="122409"][/post]​

Stuster,
I would say they are pasteurised or at the very least they would invariably have mould growing on them. You are right that high concentrations (50%) of sugar would inhibit growth.
Cooled wort certainly isn't 50% sugar either.
If it works for you great.


cheers
Darren

 

[jayse]

I'am pretty sure malt extract cans are not pastuerized, there isn't a pastuerizer on the malt extract canning production line at 'a certain brewery'. After the lid goes on it gets a label, yeast goes on top then the other lid goes on and they go into boxes. Of course the malt extract is hot throughout all this so in effect malt extract uses the 'no chill' method. :blink:

Boozed, broozed & broken boned.
Jayse

 

[user 384]

I have read that over 50% sugar content inhibits botulism growth. Perhaps Kai/others could confirm that.

[post="122409"][/post]​

Not sure at what percentage the concentration of sugars inhibts botulism growth.

Unprocesed honey is often a source of infant botulism. However in this isntance, it's the spores that survive, and make their way into the digestive tract of the infant, who does not yet have the acid levels high enough to destroy the spores, which then grow.



Cheers
MAH

 

[Darren]

I'am pretty sure malt extract cans are not pastuerized, there isn't a pastuerizer on the malt extract canning production line at 'a certain brewery'. After the lid goes on it gets a label, yeast goes on top then the other lid goes on and they go into boxes. Of course the malt extract is hot throughout all this so in effect malt extract uses the 'no chill' method. :blink:

Boozed, broozed & broken boned.
Jayse

[post="122450"][/post]​

Do they have a clean room jayse?

cheers
Darren

 

[jayse]

I'am pretty sure malt extract cans are not pastuerized, there isn't a pastuerizer on the malt extract canning production line at 'a certain brewery'. After the lid goes on it gets a label, yeast goes on top then the other lid goes on and they go into boxes. Of course the malt extract is hot throughout all this so in effect malt extract uses the 'no chill' method. :blink:

Boozed, broozed & broken boned.
Jayse

[post="122450"][/post]​

Do they have a clean room jayse?

cheers
Darren

[post="122480"][/post]​

Theres nothing stopping someone from sneezing next to a open can waiting to be filled but the lengths they go to too keep the joint pretty clean from top to bottom is quite extrodinary, its not done in a dedicated steril room or anything though.

Born to booze.
Jayse

 

[Darren]

I'am pretty sure malt extract cans are not pastuerized, there isn't a pastuerizer on the malt extract canning production line at 'a certain brewery'. After the lid goes on it gets a label, yeast goes on top then the other lid goes on and they go into boxes. Of course the malt extract is hot throughout all this so in effect malt extract uses the 'no chill' method. :blink:

Boozed, broozed & broken boned.
Jayse

[post="122450"][/post]​

Do they have a clean room jayse?

cheers
Darren

[post="122480"][/post]​

Theres nothing stopping someone from sneezing next to a open can waiting to be filled but the lengths they go to too keep the joint pretty clean from top to bottom is quite extrodinary, its not done in a dedicated steril room or anything though.

Born to booze.
Jayse

[post="122483"][/post]​

Jayse, is it positive pressure, negative pressure or a tin shed?

 

[Stuster]

MAH,

honey is implicated with infant botulism overseas but not in Australia.

From Victorian gov. site

Honey has been described in the US literature as a source of infection but never implicated in Australia and surveys of Australian honey have failed to identify C. botulinum.

 

[jayse]

Jayse, is it positive pressure, negative pressure or a tin shed?

[post="122488"][/post]​

I don't have any idea there but to hazzard a wild guess i'd say my common sense is telling me it would most likely be negative pressure. Don't really know at all how that side of things is set up though.

Boozed
Jayse

 

[pint of lager]

Members, this topic is very interesting, but rather long. To keep noise to a minimum and make the topic manageable, the humour has been deleted.

Pumpy, Ray Mills was certainly not the first to use the "no chill" method. In my brewing experience, GLS mentions it often on Craftbrewer and I am sure many brewers have used it prior. In a similar vein, Ross is not the first to use the shake and carbonate method of kegging, just one of many to use it successfully.

It is obvious that the "no chill" method can be used successfully, ESB has been using it for years, as have other brewers. So rather than everyone posting to the effect that they have tried it, keep the posts to discussing the pro's and con's of the technique. This way we can try and rein in the length of this topic.

 

[Ken Man Do]

In keeping with discussing the pros and cons, I have heard claims that there is a benefit to having trub in the fermenter. Some say it contributes in some way to the health of the yeast and fermentation.

So, though a clear wort might be "lovely", it might not be an ideal wort.

 

[MHB]

I have been following this thread with interest. The first thing I did was to grab all the books I could, they all say that a wort should/must be cooled as quickly as possible, there was little information on why. So I thought a summary of what information I could dredge up may be of assistance.

The pros all involve convenience.
The cons are for potential harm to the finished beer.

No one has argued that the no chiller method improves the quality of the wort and several concerns about the potential for harm have been touched on so:-

Microbiological:
There is the very real risk of infection, 5 years in retail and I know for a fact that some prepacked worts are infected. That the number of problems is so small it is a testament to the brewers and their hygiene standards.
Microbiological Bizarre: the ricks from really out there microbiological attacks (I.E. Botulism) appears remote, if it concerns you avoid this method.

Break Removal:
Hot break isnt an issue, if you follow good brewhouse practice and get complete separation of hot break and hop detritus. To the same standard as is required for wort that is going to be chilled, before transferring to a storage container.
Cold break again not an issue; the only people who have to worry about cold break are those using poorly modified or 6-row barley (USA). All the commercial packages I have seen have had some sediment, but not enough worry about.

Oxygen:
The presence of oxygen will degrade the wort. All care must be exercised to avoid hot side aeration of the wort. Using a filling tube that reaches to the bottom of the storage container, minimising head space and having a well closed container should help. Commercial versions are generally filled to capacity; the whole container sucks in as the wort cools.
Obviously the wort will require good aeration before the yeast is pitched.

DMS:
This is for me the big potential drawback, sensitivity to DMS is genetic, I am not highly sensitive to DMS but some people can detect remarkably small levels. To minimise the formation of DMS from its precursors it is important to get the temperature of the wort down from boiling to below 80C as quickly as possible.
As with cold break, levels of precursors in the grain play a major roll in how much of a problem this is likely to be, again we in Australia are blessed with grain that is going to give us the least problems. However if you are using European malts this could be a mater of concern especially for the production of paler Lagers and Pilsners. There are some good links earlier in this thread on DMS formation.
The Catch 22, to get down to a temperature where the formation of DMS is minimised, you loose the benefits of being above pasteurising heat. As the wort you are about to transfer is now highly infectable it cant be used to ensure sterility in the storage container. You cant think you are working to sanitary standards be certain.


If extreme care is taken with hygiene and oxygen exclusion, there are benefits in this method. There will be the odd infected batch but on the whole I for one dont see any serious impediments to the no chiller method being an asset to home brewers.

A bit of thought about the type of beer being produced and the ingredients used with this method will minimise any problems.

MHB

 

[Gerard_M]

Like I said in the beginning of this thread, is it possible that ESB speed chill after the boil and filter then pasteurise(sp) and package at that temp?:?
Cheers
Andrew

[post="123201"][/post]​

The ESB Fresh Wort Kits are filled straight from the kettle after a 20 minute whirlpool. The last few cubes that are filled tend to get a bit of trub in them, so they don't get sold. No pasturising or speed chilling.
Cheers
Gerard

 

[AndrewQLD]

Like I said in the beginning of this thread, is it possible that ESB speed chill after the boil and filter then pasteurise(sp) and package at that temp?:?
Cheers
Andrew

[post="123201"][/post]​

The ESB Fresh Wort Kits are filled straight from the kettle after a 20 minute whirlpool. The last few cubes that are filled tend to get a bit of trub in them, so they don't get sold. No pasturising or speed chilling.
Cheers
Gerard

[post="123500"][/post]​

Thanks Gerard,
cleared up that nicely, do you know what the temp is after 20 min whirlpool? is it cool enough to give a little cold break in the kettle?
Correct me please but I think cold break starts around 70c, but not very effectively?

Thanks for the info
Cheers
Andrew

 

[Ken Man Do]

Hey Darren, that's a good point. I hadn't thought of that.

But it's possible that whatever amount of oxygen makes it into the wort pre-ferment is a good thing. That's why we aerate/oxygenate, right?

I have no idea if it would be a problem to let it sit unfermenting for any extended length of time, though.

And must I have that offensive "Amateur Brewer" under my name? <_<