The "no Chiller" Method

[Ray_Mills]

SAH
The drums are 20L not 15L
Cheers
Ray

 

[Borret]

So, The DMS is driven off during the boil (assuming you don't cover your kettle during the boil). So you don't have to worry about that.

DMS is created during the boil as well as driven off. Palmer is probably the obvious place quote for this

DMS is continuously produced in the wort while it is hot and is usually removed by vaporization during the boil. If the wort is cooled slowly these compounds will not be removed from the wort and will dissolve back in. Thus it is important to not completely cover the brewpot during the boil or allow condensate to drip back into the pot from the lid. The wort should also be cooled quickly after the boil, either by immersing in an ice bath or using a wort chiller.

Brent

 

[ausdb]

Can I just be extra lazy and transfer it to a airtight fermenter, let it cool overnight then pitch the yeast?

Just tried it on thursday night on a batch of pale ale, makes the old fridge work hard as others have said but had it down to 21 last night when I pitched the yeast. Heaps of break in the bottom of the fermenter, was like egg drop soup when I took a hydro sample.

 

[Weizguy]

So, The DMS is driven off during the boil (assuming you don't cover your kettle during the boil). So you don't have to worry about that.

DMS is created during the boil as well as driven off. Palmer is probably the obvious place quote for this

DMS is continuously produced in the wort while it is hot and is usually removed by vaporization during the boil. If the wort is cooled slowly these compounds will not be removed from the wort and will dissolve back in. Thus it is important to not completely cover the brewpot during the boil or allow condensate to drip back into the pot from the lid. The wort should also be cooled quickly after the boil, either by immersing in an ice bath or using a wort chiller.

Brent

[post="115007"][/post]​

G'day Brent,

Please be advised that the DMS issue, IIRC, is of high importance to US brewers (e.g. Palmer).
Why, you ask? Coz US brewers get a lot of 6-row malt, which can produce more DMS than we are used to here, with 2-row.

So, rapid cooling is not as important for the DMS reason in Oz, as it is in the US.
...unless someone else wants to correct me?

Seth

 

[Linz]

What kind of beers have people done this too??

Any wheat beers?, got one pale ale to see the results soon, any stouts/porters,Amber ales???

 

[Weizguy]

Linz,

My last wheat beer, an ag Vienna Weizen, was cooled overnight in the sink, in a sealed fermentor.

The beer is being bottled today after fridge ferment and 2 weeks cc'ing. Tastes good to me already.

Did the same with an Irish Red in Friday night/ early Saturday morning. Sealed and cooled in sink, then fridge, to 18 C.

Seth out

 

[Linz]

Ive got the 25 lt cube from the braidwood event , so I might give it a go to save water from the cooling process.

Just more greenhouse gases from the generation of the extra electricity I'll be using in the fridge !!!

 

[Tony]

I dont think the idea is to run it into the cube to be cooled rapidly in the fridge folks.

Corect me if in wrong but wouldnt it be easier to just rack it to the cube hot and leave it to sit in a corner for a couple of days/weeks/months and brew with it when you are ready. I think thats the ideah on it.

If i am brewing and want to pitch the yeast that day i will use my chiller but if i make a brew and dont have room for it i will just rack it to cubes and leave in a dark corner in my garage till the time is right.

Putting 25 liters of 80 deg liquid in a fridge is a certain to kill the fridge preety quick

cheers

 

[ausdb]

I dont think the idea is to run it into the cube to be cooled rapidly in the fridge folks.

Corect me if in wrong but wouldnt it be easier to just rack it to the cube hot and leave it to sit in a corner for a couple of days/weeks/months and brew with it when you are ready. I think thats the ideah on it.

Yes and no, when its 1:30AM in the morning and you are knackered and haven't had time to sanitise the CFC then the fridge is a great idea!

On that not though I might try to it again for wort production during the week, drop home and mash in at lunchtime. Have the urn on timer for sparge when I get home, boil then into cube and be over at a reasonable hour. You could then pitch the yeast a few days/weeks later. Would help with the brewing spontaneously bug and not get min the crap with mrsausdb for being up brewing all night.

Could also be good for double brews, run off a cube for a mate or later then chill the rest and pitch quick. Just like a mini ESB or braidwood setup.

 

[Kai]

With regards to pasteurisation times, there's a few things that need to be considered.

First and most obviously, the wort has just come off a minimum of an hour's worth of boiling. It's when the wort is moved from kettle to vessel that is the risky phase. Given the heat loss during transfer, I'd want the wort to be over somewhere around 80C, and for it to remain above 65C for at least half an hour. Plus I always make sure my kettle tap is clean and my racking tube & collection vessel are cleaned and sanitised.

Pasteurisation calculations work on log reductions in viable microorganisms. Since the wort has been boiled for an hour, and assuming you keep your tap, tube and cube clean, there is not going to be a large quantity of bugs in your wort to begin with. Add leaving it in a sealed cube above 65C for half an hour to an hour and you're not going to have a very large microbiological count left. Sealing it in the cube (as well as effectively pasteurising the cube at the same time) means there is no chance of introducing further infection. I haven't measured the temperature of my wort in the cube (since I want it to remain sealed), so I can't vouch for how long it stays in the pasteurisation zone. For comparisons sake, milk gets 15 seconds at 72C, but milk is a different product.

I'd actually sit down and work out the ideal time/temperature profile, but my uni notes are all stacked away and I don't particularly feel like digging for them.

On the practical side of it, I don't stick it in the fridge because I don't think the fridge is a terribly efficient way of cooling it. I'd rather leave it outside, especially if there's a light breeze. When I am ready to pitch, I drop it into a fermenter to aerate. By then there is usually a fair proportion of break material settled out and left behind.

 

[pb unleaded]

Hello.

I've tried similer method without success. I posted it on Grumpys forum nearly a year ago. Here is the link:

http://www.grumpys.com.au/read.php3?id=46518

arthur

 

[Guest Lurker]

Hello.

I've tried similer method without success. I posted it on Grumpys forum nearly a year ago. Here is the link:

http://www.grumpys.com.au/read.php3?id=46518

arthur

[post="115164"][/post]​

Arthur that link contains some opinions from people who havent tried it, not evidence that the method had no success. Did the beer taste of DMS (cooked cabbage), diacetyl (buttery popcorn) or any other infection?

 

[pb unleaded]

Did the beer taste of DMS (cooked cabbage), diacetyl (buttery popcorn) or any other infection?

Yes it did. All of the above and more. I won't be doing that again.

arthur

 

[Ray_Mills]

Arther
Have you ever had DMS, Diacetyl in any ESB Wort kit you havebrewed or tried,
Maybe these problems were coming from other areas not the wort itself
Cheers
Ray

 

[Ross]

Arther
Have you ever had DMS, Diacetyl in any ESB Wort kit you havebrewed or tried,
Maybe these problems were coming from other areas not the wort itself
Cheers
Ray

[post="115192"][/post]​

Am I missing something - I never heard Arthur mention ESB wort kits?

Here is someone who has tried the method & got the results that respected brewers have warned against - I'm sure people have had great results going against "the grain" in a lot of aspects of brewing - but you take the risk & you live with the results... I'm tempted to use this technique on a double brew day, where the extra 30 minutes saved would be most welcomed - but unless I'm really strapped for time , I'd rather not take the risk & jepordise a brew...

cheers Ross...

 

[Kai]

I count Ray as a respected brewer and it works for him, Ross. And it has worked for me too so far, FWIW.

 

[jimmyjack]

Im in the "If it aint broke dont fix it camp" However i was tempted to try it today and opted against it as I didnt have a new cube and had plenty of time. I did however underlet for the first time with great success!!!!

Cheers, Jj

 

[Ross]

I count Ray as a respected brewer and it works for him, Ross. And it has worked for me too so far, FWIW.

[post="115215"][/post]​

Kai - my comments wern't meant as a knock against Ray or anyone else - As I said, I'm intending on trying myself - I'm just saying that general literature that we all respect says that this is bad practice & there are risks involved...

cheers Ross...

 

[Kai]

Sure, but it's always worth considering if problems were caused by alternate issues. There are a lot of variables in brewing, and on the other side of the coin I'm not ruling out finding problems with this method in future.

 

[Linz]

Before anyone jumps the gun here Arthur stated he 'boiled', 'stored', then 'fermented' ALL IN THE SAME VESSEL!!!!!

We're talking of boiling in one vessel, storing in another, and fermenting in a third