Sour beers

[Danwood]

I'll admit I'm not well versed on sours and the like (certainly not recipes and processes anyway), despite having been to Belgium a couple of times and also Cantillion brewery.

The face-puckering sours at Cantillion were a bit much for me.

I do like Rodenbach though. If something like that could be worked in with the shirraz/cherry flavour, I'd be happy.

I think I'll do an Orval edition, just to educate myself. Any other suggestions for secondary fermentations ?

 

[Danwood]

Orval dregs are great for funking up beers. You can swirl the dregs and add to individual bottles if you don't want to funk up a fermentor. Make sure it's finished fermenting and drink within a few months. I've done this a few times with great results

I assume adding to individual bottles would be sufficient to give a light carbonation ? No need for a touch of dextrose ?

 

[Kranky]

Just had a quick look at wild brews, parently Oud Bruin is the "quickest" to make. Maybe try for ~2-3 months raised to the wyeast recomended 26-29 degrees and see hows it traveling. If you wanna leave longer consider racking to a HDPE bottle or glass.

From what I've read oud bruin is Lacto driven, which is a faster performer. though have done no oudsbruins myself.

There's a number of things you try if you want to make a sour beer more quickly and fermenting at those higher temperatures is one of them. You could make a Flanders Red and ferment it in 8 weeks. It works but the beer will lack the complexity of a beer that is fermented between 18-21C and left for a year or 18 months. They may be a bit rougher around the edges too (not all the time in my experience). Adding fruit can smooth them out, as can a bit of oak.

If you want a really good sour though you just have to be patient. The Brett, lactobacillus and pediococcus all need time to work.

Two other things you can try for a faster sour:
* Mash at a higher temperature (eg 72) so there are more longer chain sugars in your beer. The yeast wont be able to eat them but the bacteria bugs will.
* Pitch lactobacillus into a wort at around 35-40C, ferment at that temp for a few days then drop the temperature down and drop in a regular ale yeast.

As for leaving beer in plastic long term - I've have sour beers in plastic for 6 months without issue. I've had other beers in plastic for 4-5 months that I thought did oxygenate. Raj Apte, an engineer with xerox, did some research with regard to oxygen interaction with various brewing vessles, including plastic, glass, oak barrels and foudres. If you're really interested in looking into it track down his research (sorry, I can't be arsed) and read up on it. It's probably quiet reliable.

 

[mje1980]

I assume adding to individual bottles would be sufficient to give a light carbonation ? No need for a touch of dextrose ?

It's tricky, because brett will eat just about everything in time, so yeah, you can not add extra sugar, and try a bottle every few months. I added a small amount of priming sugar, but that was with a saison, which finished at 1.002 or something silly, so there wasn't much left for brett to eat, and I drank them within a few months. It worked quite well.

I also did a beire de garde, which, again, ended at 1.005 so I wasn't too worried about excess carb, however I bottled into champagne bottles just to be safe. That beer I added to a 10litre fermentor with orval and lambic dregs, and left for 3 months. Bottled at very low fg. That turned out sensational, big cherry aroma, and funky fruity dry flavour, and the bottles opened with a nice pop! Was a hit at a few club days. I may actually have one left somewhere.

 

[mje1980]

Yep, found the last one, it's in the fridge now. Dry July sucks

 

[Danwood]

Without looking at the RIS notes, I think it should finish at 1025 ish.

There'll be a fair bit of dextrinous stuff left after 007 has been through, so I won't leave any spiked bottles for too long or I'll get bombs.
As mentioned, more aging would probably be better, but this seems like a good starting point.

 

[mje1980]

Yeah, just try one every few weeks, it does work slowly. That's a lot of food for the brett , so just be careful and don't leave them too long. I reckon that beer would be worth a 10 litre bunnings fermentor and a few months though.

Yeah patience is a must with funky and or sours.

 

[Danwood]

I was just reading on the Wyeast site that Ped. and Lacto. strains are sensitive to IBUs over 10.

My RIS is obviously WAY over that...will they still be happy ?

And can someone recommend a commercial sour with salvageable lactic yeast ? Maybe a Flanders or Oud Bruin ?

I've never tried either, but I think they fit the bill ? Correct me if not.

Cheers.

 

[Jaded and Bitter]

If you want quickish sour I think you need lacto brevis, its a PC atm also.

L. Brevis is hop tolerant.

Dunno if the PC oud bruin blend has L.Brevis, though bruins typically have IBU's round 20, maybe send them an email and let us all know.

maybe go the more traditional brett RIS secondary

 

[vykuza]

Hops won't stop them dead, but will inhibit them somewhat. J&B is right with Lacto. Brevis - it's more hop tolerant (and available all year around with White Labs WLP672). Also produces more lactic acid than L. delbrueckii

I can't think of a beer that will get you just lacto - it's nearly always in combo with Brett. Maybe a Gose or Berlinner Weisse.

You could always try pitching some lacto from yoghurt... depends on how brave you're feeling!

 

[Danwood]

Not that brave.

I think I'll do 5L with 2 orval bottle dregs and 5L with 2 boon kriek dregs.

I'll report back with findings.

Thanks for the suggestions btw !

 

[Jaded and Bitter]

Gonna give this a kick

My Flanders reds smelling nice, bout 5 months old.

Per wild brews thinking of brewing a 'fresh' red for blending in summer. Maybe with 1/3 of the by then 9-10 month old, then keep rest for blending next year an, plus some of the fresh beer.

So this summers beer would be 2/3 fresh sour and 1/3 aged. Next year would be a blend of fresh, 1 year and 2 year etc.

Not gonna start a solera.

Thoughts?

 

[Josh]

Gonna give this a kick

My Flanders reds smelling nice, bout 5 months old.

Per wild brews thinking of brewing a 'fresh' red for blending in summer. Maybe with 1/3 of the by then 9-10 month old, then keep rest for blending next year an, plus some of the fresh beer.

So this summers beer would be 2/3 fresh sour and 1/3 aged. Next year would be a blend of fresh, 1 year and 2 year etc.

Not gonna start a solera.

Thoughts?

Good idea. I just kegged a full keg of Flanders Red minus two bottles for comps + Oak Cubes.

Thinking I could do another Flanders Red and blend in 6-12 months. The trick will be keeping this keg that long. If it does well in the State comp I'll probably just bring the keg to Club Night at ANHC4.

 

[fattox]

Im also interested in the process to make a good lambic. The Berliner Weisse was great and has sparked a want to make somethiing a bit more complex.

With my current long term dry spell, it will also be a bit of fun to watch it rot and have it getting close to bottle in 2014.

I have a couple EKG plugs pulled apart and "aging" for it.

Any tips from sour beer pro's out there much appreciated!

Cheers

I'm not sure of his username on here but Anthony at Toowoomba Home Brewers does a mean sour, he usually has several in various stages from what I understand. I know the store has an account here anyway so you could probably contact him via there. I know he does a lot of sour/wild ales so he would definitely be one to talk to. Also BenKen25 (I think) our local club president does a pretty good Saison so could be another one to get onto. I think he won a comp with that saison recently actually, it's a dark myrtle saison. Very nice beer too

 

[fattox]

Hops won't stop them dead, but will inhibit them somewhat. J&B is right with Lacto. Brevis - it's more hop tolerant (and available all year around with White Labs WLP672). Also produces more lactic acid than L. delbrueckii

I can't think of a beer that will get you just lacto - it's nearly always in combo with Brett. Maybe a Gose or Berlinner Weisse.

You could always try pitching some lacto from yoghurt... depends on how brave you're feeling!

+1 - you want like 5-8 IBU max of hops in a sour, things like Pedio/Lacto/Brett don't seem to like them as much as Saccharomyces. If you look at this (another one of Anthony's great finds) interview with Jess Caudill of Wyeast, it explains a big thing about sour beers and hop presence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hClp9huB1M

 

[Tony]

I have not brewed since i made the lambic and Falnders Red listed a few pages back

I was in my garage today doing some stuff, as you do in a garage, when i heard a farmiliar sound from long ago.........

"Bloop"

I had forgoten the bloody things existed. Both were pushed un a corner and has stuff piled up over them. Both still have a nice layer of mouldy looking crap on the surface and smell amazing from the airlock.

I'm gunna look at ordering some cages to hold the corks in the bottles i have collected, and might pitch a bit of fresh US-05 to carb them up.

Any suggestions on a better yeast to use for bottle fermentation?

 

[barls]

mate,
dont bother with fresh yeast they are sours. they will carb.

 

[Tony]

Copy that!

 

[Tony]

Oh...... speaking of sour beers, I found a 27 month old wyeast pack of berlinner weisse stached in the top shelf of the drinks fridge.

I smacked it this morning for ***** and giggles and its swelling

Gunna order some pils and wheat and do my first brew in almost 2 years

 

[mje1980]

Hey guys, I'm doing a no boil weisse. After a few days in the BIAB keggle ( gunna pitch a smack pack of lacto ), I then plan on boiling, cubing, and once cooled, finishing with standard yeast.

Which one should I use?. Ideally I'd love to use 1007 German ale, but I don't have any. I do have a sachet of notto, but I hate notto, so was thinking of either ordering the German ale, or just going down the road and grabbing some US05. What do you guys reckon??.