Saison Recipe Critique Please

[rwmingis]

Hi All,

And for my next trick.... I intend to make a Saison. I found a recipe here which apparently won best of show. I've had to tweak it a bit to allow for ingredients that I can find in Oz. See the attached PDF for the recipe. Below's a summary of the changes:

1. Belgian Pilsner --> Weyermann Pilsner (hardly worth mentioning I think)
2. Belgian Aromatic --> Melanoiden
3. Addition of 0.5 kg of Candi Sugar. Have always wanted to try making my own and using it, so have snuck it into the recipe. I've backed off on the other malts to allow for this. I've kept the malt ratios relative to each other the same, even though the overall ratios do change (relative to total grain/sugar bill)
4. I intend on adding a bit of Coriander seed, just to try it. I only want to put enough so that I can just taste it, I know it's easy to go overboard. Any ideas on amount?

I realise this will take a lot of work to ferment, which is why I add the Candi sugar after a few days so that the yeast get a change to get the hard work out of the way first. Speaking of yeast, why is it that when using the rated attenuation (average of high and low), I end up with such a high FG. Usually I find I beat the best attenuation by about 5% or so. Needless to say 1.019 is really high. I realise it's a bit more than it would be because the candi sugar will fully ferment meaning the FG will be lower. I suspect it will go down to 1.014

Anyway, I would love to hear comments, critiques, etc. I also want to be sure also that I am not using too much Vienna or Munich, so any comments along those lines would also be appreciated. Best get the mistakes out now before I find out the hard way.

Cheers! :icon_cheers:

Rob

View attachment Summer_Saison.pdf

 

[rwmingis]

Bump!

 

[mika]

In the 'Flavour of the week' sub-forum there will be a thread on Saison, have a look there and research the recipe database, think it would help.
Recipe looks mostly fine, the Candi sugar is a bit out of place but it should work out fine. Personally I'd probably drop the Munich out and replace it with Wheat malt, but what you've got will work.
I'd mash lower, you really want these to finish quite dry. I'd be annoyed if it didn't get under 1010 and the closer to 1006 the better.
Coriander is a bit of a cheat's way of getting the flavours. I'd go for ~20g @ 5mins before end of boil. Get the seeds realtively fresh and crush them up (mortar and pestle) before adding.

 

[Aaron]

Check out this recipe by Kai:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...&recipe=208

This was one of the best beers I have ever had.

 

[rwmingis]

Hi Mika,

Thanks for the info. Strange, the google search on the forums didn't turn up the Saison Style of the week thread. Regardless will read it through.

I put the candi sugar in as I want to reproduce the slight funkiness found in Silly Saison. I thought the mash temp was a bit high too, will drop to say 64? So Coriander is the cheat's way, what's the hard way?

Rob

 

[mika]

Yeast, yeast and yeast. All the flavours in a Saison are meant to be from the yeast. Making it happen is another story though....

 

[mika]

Kai's recipe looks spot on, I can't see Belgian Candi sugar adding funkiness, it will make the recipe a little drier (what you need) and perhaps add a slight cidery note, none of it a bad thing, but I'd be saving it for a Belgian and just throwing in Table Sugar if you wanted to.

But hey, I'm just going off the style guidelines and what I've read and tasted, the one Saison I've brewed is still fermenting...frickin' DuPont yeast <_<

 

[Aaron]

Kai's recipe looks spot on

It is awesome. I have had DuPont, Regal and a few other Saisons. Given the choice I would pick Kai's.

 

[kabooby]

I am with Mika on this, Saisons need to finish dry, below 1010. Use a proper Saison yeast and play with your temperatures. Start the ferment around 20C and let it warm up to about 25 after a few days. This should give you all the spicy flavours you are after.

Personally I like my Saisons on the lighter side. Just Pils and maybe some wheat. This lets the yeast stand out

Kabooby

 

[Trent]

Pitch at 20?!?
I usually pitch my saisons at 27 or 28 and let em run as high as they want, which hasnt yet (knock on wood) been above 35C, so all is sweet.
My first attempt went from 1067 to 1004 in a month for about 8.4% alcohol - no fusels, plenty of spiciness, and heaps of dryness and great saison flavours. I have since taken to starting my saisons at around 1036-1040, and they usually finish at 1002 to 1004. If you are using a proper saison yeast, you will have no trouble with it dropping less than 1010.
My grain bills are always just 90+% pils malt, with the remainder wheat. Mind you, I am a bit of a KISS brewer.
Good luck with it, right now is the time to be brewing saisons, and if you use the 3724, expect it to take a month. I have heard that the French Saison yeast can be done within a week or so to about 95% or so attenuation.
All the best
Trent

 

[kabooby]

Thats good to know you can get away with those temps. My last saison was a 1045 beer that finished @ 1002. Great for a hot summers day :chug:

I used the french Saison yeast and it got to about 27C. When it was finished I detected a slight fusel smell in the beer. After 6 weeks in the keg I can't detect it so it may have just been some spicyness from the fermentation. I don't believe fusel would disapate over time :unsure:

Kabooby

 

[Kai]

It is awesome. I have had DuPont, Regal and a few other Saisons. Given the choice I would pick Kai's.

Yeah!

 

[jagerbrau]

second that on kai's Saison, tried it at a comp once best beer tried all day. he had some good competition

 

[pmolou]

iv only brewed one and it went up to 34celcius
i think the key to this style is having a little faith and just let it go

 

[mikem108]

Skip the candi sugar but if you really want to dry it out a bit and use an adjunct then plain old white sugar from the supermarket.

 

[rwmingis]

It's really sounding like I should skip the Candi sugar, it's good this way, means less work for me. Bah, who gave me that Candi Sugar idea anyway! Oh yea, me.

It's sounding like I'll be swapping to Kai's recipe now. I already have WLP565, so will have to use that, hope it's is a good one. Looks like this recipe will help complete my collection of every hop in the world!

Thanks for all of your help, this is fantastic.

Cheers,

Rob :icon_cheers:

 

[kabooby]

Just use the hops you have. Something like Saaz, Hallertaur, Fuggles, Styrian goldings would all be fine.

Kabooby

 

[Tony]

Plan to make one soon while its warm using Bourgoul...... steamed cracked wheat.

Warren put me onto it and it is suposed to impart a dry champain character to the beer.

Will be using the farmhouse ale yeast and letting it go for its life with no temp control in the garage/house.

going a simple pils/munich/bourgoul grain bill and keeping it to 1.052 or so to makeit quaffable on a hot day.

cheers

 

[rwmingis]

Just use the hops you have. Something like Saaz, Hallertaur, Fuggles, Styrian goldings would all be fine.

Kabooby

I had a stock take the other day and chucked out really old hops that weren't stored very well.

Computa says i've got:

Amarillo Gold
Cascade
Goldings - E.K. Is this close enough to Styrian?
Nelson Sauvin Hops
German Perle
Saaz
Simcoe
Hallertau

Got any pointers? Suppose it wouldn't hurt to add one or two varieties to my stash. BTW does anyone know a good container to store hops in. I have those glass flip tops you get at golo, but i don't reckon they are very air tight. Would love to find a good supplier of those old glass jars with screw top lids (but the right size for 100g of pellets).

Cheers

Rob

 

[mika]

Those hops should work fine.

Ziplock bags from a certain sponsor seem to work well
Or buy a vacuum sealer and go nuts.
If they're kept in the freezer they'll hold on for a while even if not stored in a completely airtight container.