Reducing Break Material

[theredone]

hey guys just wondering how i reduce the amount of break and crud that i suck from pot into fermenter, ive got no comparison to go off but ive done 2 biab brews so far and there is alot of junk in the bottom and i cant get all of the good stuff out. first time i just sucked a bit through and ended up having to throw aways 1.5-2ltrs or wort that had too much shit mixed in with it(when only doing half batches this seems alot), now ive just done my second, racked from bot into fermenter but had it running through a hop sock that i bought from LHBS, so im assuming its a good one.by the time id sucked it all through the bag was quite full, bout a ltr in there so i gave it a squeeze...... bad idea as thick wort/junk mix squeezed out.

and also is it that detreimental to your beer to have that crap go into fermenter?

cheers guys
red

 

[zebba]

Have a look at whirlpooling. Heaps of good threads on it.

Sucking it in won't make it undrinkable. It should mostly fall to the bottom of the fermenter. Beer may be a bit hazier though (which an extended cold crash may fix) and I've heard talk of stability (i.e. shelf life) being affected.

I took a cube back from a case swap once that was loaded with gunk - the beer fermented out crystal clear and tasted great.

Summary - you should try and minimise it (check out whirlpooling), but it ain't the end of the world.

 

[Bribie G]

Whirlfloc, koppa floc or any of the other 'flocculating' compounds added for the last 10 mins of the boil will give you bigger break crumbs that will settle out to a thinner more compact layer. As long as the pot is well sealed, no harm in letting it sit for up to half an hour to settle. Maybe not if you intend to keep a no chill cube of wort for weeks, but if pitching the next day then I've never ever had an infection from that.

If you can get your hands on some Brewbrite it's a floccing Rottweiler.

Also if you pour the remains into a big sterile jar or two (say a couple of V8 heavy glass 1.5L jars and clingwrap them) and leave them overnight in fridge, by next morning you can often glean an extra litre or so of clear stuff to use in a starter for the brew, or tip it into fermenter along with cube contents.

 

[argon]

Yep as above

My top 3 things for minimising trub into cube/fermenter;

1. Flocculating agent (Whifloc/Koppafloc/Brewbrite) Added last 10 mins in boil. This will allow all the break material to clump together and fall in the kettle.

2. Wait, whirlpool, then wait. Flameout, wait 10 mins then Give the pot a great big stir to create a vortex, wait another 10mins. All the junk gets sucked into a cone in the middle of the pot.

3. Pickup tube in kettle. If you've got a ball valve on your kettle, add a pickup tube that picks up from the edge of the pot away from the trub cone created by the flocculating agent and the whirlpool. Small bit of bent copper or ss tubing shaped around to take wort from the edge. Or for syphoning take the wort from just below the surface and then at the end pickup from the edge of the pot.

You'll transfer alot less trub by doing the above.

 

[zebba]

I don't think you need to create a vortex to when whirlpooling. I basically just get it turning relatively uniformely, let it sit, and a cone forms.

If you get some plain water, put some solids in there and get a little whirlpool going, you see that they all migrate to the middle as the whirlpool is stopping, and they don't do it any better if you get a big vortex happening.

I've heard a few people talk about getting a vortex going, using a drill and paddle to get a good whirlpool, etc, and it confuses me. I'd like to hear why people go to this extreme when just getting the fluid turning around the pot gently is enough.

 

[Bribie G]

Another thing that I have never tried personally but I've seen it posted is, if you have a tap on the pot or urn, chock up the front so that the bulk of the trub sinks to the back. Then gradually remove chocking until debris starts to appear in the pour. Door chock should work as a preliminary experiment. My urn has a respectable dead space under the tap anyway but I might try it next brew. but careful not to tip pot over backwards over dogs or toddlers

 

[manticle]

I don't think you need to create a vortex to when whirlpooling. I basically just get it turning relatively uniformely, let it sit, and a cone forms.

If you get some plain water, put some solids in there and get a little whirlpool going, you see that they all migrate to the middle as the whirlpool is stopping, and they don't do it any better if you get a big vortex happening.

I've heard a few people talk about getting a vortex going, using a drill and paddle to get a good whirlpool, etc, and it confuses me. I'd like to hear why people go to this extreme when just getting the fluid turning around the pot gently is enough.

I used to just stir then got shown how to create a vortex and the difference in cone formation is worth it in my opinion.

I'd like to second bribie G's suggestion for keeping wort liquid which contains break and letting it drop out in the fridge. If you are losing a lot to break, you can get extra from this - my main use for it is in making an active starter for the same beer. I always boil it and chill it again the next day before use.

 

[zebba]

I used to just stir then got shown how to create a vortex and the difference in cone formation is worth it in my opinion.

That's interesting - I'll give it a go when I get my new kettle. I was unsure whether this was another of those brewing "facts" that was said by someone once way back when, and became best practice by default, when really it's making something a little more complicated for no actual gain.

And that isn't meant to reflect negatively on anyone who has recommended doing it BTW (not jsut this thread, there have been plenty!). I'm new to this, and learning. If I see stuff that seems strange to me, I ask.

 

[manticle]

Basically in my experience everything gets pulled into the middle and I've found it easier to get more clear wort in my cube and easier to keep the trub undisturbed in the centre away from the tap. Once formed, you have to be gentle with the kettle and let it sit 10-20 mins after whirlpooling (until the whirlpool stops moving and the wort looks pretty clear). Some floaties will be inevitable.

I'm still learning too mate. I hope not to stop - it's part of what I enjoy about brewing.

 

[felten]

After whirlpooling I get a massive trub cone but it floats out to the edges pretty quickly as the wort level drops, and I can't siphon out as much as I want to. It's rather annoying but you can salvage it as stated above and use it for stepping up yeast for the same batch, I've used a cheesecloth to filter out parts of it before, but bottling it and letting it settle might be easier. Usually I end up losing 3-4L to trub, but you can account for that in the recipe.

 

[theredone]

cheers for the advice guys. appreciate it, so its basically inevatable that ill loose a fair amount of wort. ill wirlpool next one and hopefully get more than 23 stubbies out of a half batch
just bottle my first and that all i got, im sure quality will make up for quantity lost
thanks again
red

 

[kelbygreen]

i forgot to buy whirfloc and didnt whirlpool last batch and only left just under 1lt in the bottom I did crush chill it and leave it overnight sealed of coarse it was very loose trub but i just squeeze the siphon hose so its got a really slow flow when you get near the bottom. will see how it turns out.

 

[theredone]

shit. i just realised forgot to add my whirlfock tablet last night. is it 100% nesseisary? or will if have any ill effects if i dont have it in there? ive already let the wort cool overnight but if its needed i could boil it again for 15 and ad the pill yeah?

cheers
red

 

[felten]

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...c=49294&hl=

tldr, don't boil it again

 

[kelbygreen]

if its cooled over night just siphon from where it sits. You may suck up a little more trub but it should settle out you will be fine will still make good beer lol

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

If you can get your hands on some Brewbrite it's a floccing Rottweiler.

Does anyone stock this product in AU yet? I had no luck with a google search :angry:

 

[RdeVjun]

FWIW, if your kettle is a stockpot up to 20L, perhaps as much as 30L or more if you're game, there's another option: chill in- kettle. I.e. after boil is up pop the lid back on (remaining sanitary of course), if there's any late hops just leave it sit for 10 minutes then pop it in the laundry tub to chill. Over the next hour or two give the tub a few changes of water (use the 'free' warm water for cleaning up), then next morning you end up with wort at pitching temperature but also sitting on the kettle trub. Now, this cooled wort can then be poured out through a sieve to catch the break material, however I find it works best with some whole hops (so flowers or plugs) to form a filter bed and can take a few minutes to drain it all through. I actually prefer this method, it allows for >95% of the wort to be harvested into the fermenter, minimises kettle trub losses and also aerates it prior to pitching. Much of the break does get caught in the filter, not all of course but the vast majority is trapped. Obviously, handling a stockpot full of near- boiling wort is not without its hazards though, so the method may not suit everyone...
Using flocculants seems to help aggregate break, it remains quite crumb- like as it is poured through, while I don't seem to have any kettle trub in the fermenter issues from this method- a Munich Helles done precisely like this had these comments from recent AABC judging: "Look at ferment to clean up diacetyl and you'll have a real winner." and "Well made beer.", however there was apparently a diacetyl fault, which is a fermentation and not wort production issue.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

When you have done a whirlpool, it's important tomkeep an eye on the level of wort in the kettle as you are draining. Once you get to the point where the trub cone is starting to protrude from teh surface, of you don't want to risk the cone breaking up and spreading out, you need to slow the rate at which you drain right down. You have to be lowering the wort level more slowly, than wort can drain from the cone, otherwise the weight of the liquid pulls the cone to bits.

Sometimes it's just nearly impossible, but slowing right down at the end has helped a lot.

Trub cones will (should anyway) stick together a little better if you chill your wort in the kettle. Immersion, sink, no chill... If you used kettle finings, then theyntend to go a little jelly like at cold temperatures and that can help stick the trub cone together a little more firmly

For the OP... With biab you will always get a relatively large amount of break material in the kettle, it mostly protiens that would normally have formed at mash temperatures and been filtered out in a mash tun... But in biab a lot of them make it to the kettle and need to be removed there.

Cheers TB

 

[Bribie G]

Does anyone stock this product in AU yet? I had no luck with a google search :angry:

You can buy it any day of the week, but currently you have to buy a 20 or maybe 25 kg sack which is around $1300 - not bad value actually considering what 25k of Polyclar / flocco mixture would cost you retail. Only options at the moment are:

• wait for someone to organise a bulk buy
• wait for a retailer to get some in and do repacks.

No news on either front I'm afraid.

 

[theredone]

cheers all. i ended up sucking quite a bit of shit through
and was left with alot of what looked like waisted wort, so i tipped it into my hop sock(almost filling the damn thing) and pegged it to the side of fermenter to just drip in slowly while i was at work. there is a fair amount of crud in there, not sure weather this is mainly from the amount i sucked through initially or from the hop sock idea, so i cant get an accurate OG. i was expecting to have to top up to about 10-11 ltrs so i opted for 10.

re: wirlpool, i didnt get a cone at all, i mean not even remotly close, just a heap of crap towards the bottom, ratio of crud:wort getting thicker as i get closer to bottom