Professional Vs Amateur - Competitions

[haysie]

What about having access but not using it? For example, I've seen thirstyboy's laundry set-up and it's not really any more flash than yours or mine apart from the beerbelly mash tun.

Presuming his comp beers are brewed there rather than using the CUB lab/brewery, how would you feel?

No problems! I can send my beers away for testing to at a premium price, adjust my recipe etc. Is it an unfair advantage?
An employee of a brewery house or a homebrewer brewing at a brewery house entering a comp would in my eyes be subject to a little suspicion hence, the word "homebrewer".

Why would a professional (what ever that means) enter an amateur competition. Akin to handing an American, Bear Grylls and the Chief of the Sentinelese a Big Mac and asking them to judge it.

 

[manticle]

Suspicion I can understand.

I guess if the prizes or honour of brew competition first places were greater (holiday in Fiji for example) then I'd be even more suspicious.

To my mind (and my experience of comps is very limited - you're much more involved than me) they are the arena of passionate brewers and anyone who cheats to win is just a fool. It's not the olympics - you get a trophy and a pat on the back.

I know some professional brewers are passionate home brewers as well and some of them help make beers at work that would completely bomb out in an amateur comp. Imagine someone entering Foster lager into the lager or Aussie bitter categories?

Maybe professional brewers need to be transparent about their processes but like I said earlier - the centre half from the Australian Hockey team can still play for Camberwell state league side. The Australian team as a whole can't enter state league though.

I think the idea of judges entering beers in the category they are judging is more of an issue but I know juggling numbers of judges and participants isn't easy. Still think that should be a hard and fast rule for any BJCP style comp.

 

[InCider]

Nothing is more rewarding than your keg drained at a Case Swap. The icing on the cake would be the grumbling that there's none left for the hair of the dog.
And considering there will be at least a dozen beers on portable apparatus, then the house beers also...and tried many times through the night, the favoured beer will be a tried and tested brew.

I'm off to bed. I'm in storytelling mode :lol:

 

[browndog]

Suspicion I can understand.

I guess if the prizes or honour of brew competition first places were greater (holiday in Fiji for example) then I'd be even more suspicious.

To my mind (and my experience of comps is very limited - you're much more involved than me) they are the arena of passionate brewers and anyone who cheats to win is just a fool. It's not the olympics - you get a trophy and a pat on the back.

I know some professional brewers are passionate home brewers as well and some of them help make beers at work that would completely bomb out in an amateur comp. Imagine someone entering Foster lager into the lager or Aussie bitter categories?

Maybe professional brewers need to be transparent about their processes but like I said earlier - the centre half from the Australian Hockey team can still play for Camberwell state league side. The Australian team as a whole can't enter state league though.

I think the idea of judges entering beers in the category they are judging is more of an issue but I know juggling numbers of judges and participants isn't easy. Still think that should be a hard and fast rule for any BJCP style comp.

Cheats are cheats, there is no understanding their reasoning for the normal person. I have mates that I grew up with that were perfectly normal to me, but when we were old enought to know better and had joined a social golf club, one used to cheat like a *******. We all knew what was going on and used to scratch our head about it, but never came up with an answer. To think it does not happen in our home brew comps is naive.


cheers

Browndog

 

[manticle]

To think it does not happen in our home brew comps is naive.

I have no doubt that it does happen in any and every competition of any kind - just that the person who does it is a twit and the amount of care I have is fairly small. Only cheating themselves as the expression goes and for what? Undeserved self glory?

 

[bradsbrew]

I have no doubt that it does happen in any and every competition of any kind - just that the person who does it is a twit and the amount of care I have is fairly small. Only cheating themselves as the expression goes and for what? Undeserved self glory?

When you look at the prizes that have been on offer by BAABs and QABC the last couple of years its more than undeserved self glory that one could gain. Not that any of the winners have cheated and that I had a chance of winning, I would hate to see any of the prizes go to someone that doesnt deserve it.
Perhaps its just a case of the rules need to be clear and concise.

Cheers

 

[manticle]

I know there have been some decent prizes on offer but it's not like cheating to win the lottery.

I think someone who deliberately cheats in an amateur comp of any kind is a sad sack. Not condoning cheating the lottery either but at least I can understand the motivation a little better.

As BD suggested, there are people who will cheat at anything. I don't think those who brew for a living are any more or less likely to do so. If they do, I hope they either get busted or just bomb out. If they win and nobody knows then I hope they realise one day what absolute tits they really are.

 

[haysie]

If they win and nobody knows then I hope they realise one day what absolute tits they really are.

Good call. I know of at least one beer that has taken 1st place that was very suspect, i.e brewed on commercial equipment.
I wonder why so many moons ago homebrewing comps had kit categories and now you dont see them? Is it not enough entries maybe. Whatshisname from Canberra has taken out AABC Beer of Show with a kit entry. No doubt kits make great beers but the wort isnt produced in a HB environment its only mixed and fermented. So.... bring back kit category! Never happen I know but somewhere along the line.......kitters were put against AGers when the kit category was dropped and now we have homemade crafted beer and "add water" beer thats not homemade.
I just dont get it so best i move on to another thread B)

 

[hazard]

Wortkits? Kits? it wasnt homebrewed, it was fermented, add water etc, so no!

But since AG produces better beer than kits, why not let someone enter a kit brew - its not going to win is it? Alternatively, if you think you have something to fear from kit brews then why aren't you making them yourself?

And if AG is not as good, why do I waste 6 hours every month making an AG beer?!?

 

[haysie]

But since AG produces better beer than kits, why not let someone enter a kit brew - its not going to win is it? Alternatively, if you think you have something to fear from kit brews then why aren't you making them yourself?

And if AG is not as good, why do I waste 6 hours every month making an AG beer?!?

Read my above post... they do win!!
Fear? I brew kits as well hazard. Dont start a kit vrs ag, what I said was Kits are not Homebrewed Wort!

edit, the kits are brewed on commercial/professional equipment, so I dont rate them at all as being amateur status.

 

[DU99]

but people have been saying Cans of Goo,are rubbish,but yet some are saying can turn a sours ear into a silk purse

 

[mintsauce]

Are you an actual Brewer? (I.e. brewer with free range to experiment with recipes make changes etc) as that would mean you spend your 40 hours a week getting paid to research etc to then beat us amateurs who only spend a few hours a week... I would feel that would be the difference.

However if you simply work at a brewery producing batches of beer as per instructions/procedures given to you then I'd say you can enter the amateur comps Perhaps a little discrestion required.

 

[churchy]

I supose it's ok to enter, but if your a judge at a competition and have a beer entered in a particular category you should be exempt from scoring in that category as not to give a inflated score <_<


Andrew

 

[mika]

All very intriguing.
There's probably nothing within a professional brewing setup that isnt aquirable at home by a well (very well perhaps) funded homebrewer. There are already homebrewers around with lab equipment enabling them to do cell counts on yeast (something most mircobreweries wouldn't have) and there's plenty of homebrewers with stainless conicals and erlenmeyer flasks. And what respectable homebrewer nowadays doesn't have their fermenter in a fridge with +/- 1C temp control ?
It's already been discussed about homebrewers having similar or greater official qualifications than production brewers from teaching establishments, so knowledge base can't be the issue.
So what is really all that flash about being a 'professional' brewer ? Sure a nice Steinecker 100HL system would be fun to play with, with all it's SCADA control systems (HABs, Brewbot ?), wet milling (Tony's cup of water in the grist) and internal calandria's (surely there's someone ?) but at the end of the day, it's producing sugary water.
Still it does raise an interesting scenario about previously mentioned Brendan Varis brewing a batch of Hop Hog at work for 'home consumption' and then entering the batch into a local comp. Would the beer win ? And for those that say yes, what part of the process is making that a 'winning' beer ?
After hearing the 'How to win competitions' talk at the ANHC last year and the diversity of the systems and processes used, to me all entrants are welcome.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

I supose it's ok to enter, but if your a judge at a competition and have a beer entered in a particular category you should be exempt from scoring in that category as not to give a inflated score <_<


Andrew

Interesting point of view and one which needs to be consideration as this comp is the second biggest in Australia.
I am assuming that most of the amateur section judges at the PRBS will be local qualified BJCP guys and most will be West coast brewers members.
West coast brewers will make up a large percentage of the entries, so how can you judge and be a contestant ? The chances are that you will judge your own beers.
I know this will happen as it has happened to me before, I did mark my own beer down for that reason. It wasnt a year I won a trophy
Its not a comfortable place to be at as a judge and the main reason I dont want to judge this comp again.
I know Brendan O is a top judge and gives great feedback. Mate its going to be hard for you. You will be a "professional" a judge and a contestant.
GB

 

[MHB]

I have no objection to anyone entering a beer they have made themselves in any competition.
If you object to pro brewers entering you are I think objecting to Craft Brewers not the guys who work for the mega breweries, brewers there sit in little air-conditioned rooms and stare at computer screens all day, I suspect they never see malt or hops, just process diagrams.
Most of the craft brewers I know started as home brewers (good ones) and took the plunge. Often at personal financial risk, they are guys with boundless passion for brewing and most of them are more than happy to help fellow brewers and are the first to come to club events and do what they can to help others become better brewers.
As for the alleged advantage they have crap they cant get any ingredients that isnt available to you and me, most often we have access to better ingredients, we dont have accountants leaning over our shoulders. The same knowledge is available to us all.
I always thought the wussyst thread on AHB was the one complaining about Kit brewers taking the prizes that rightfully belonged to all grainers; reckon this one is a close second.
Treat comps as a way to learn, put up your best effort, if you dont do as well as you think you should use the feedback to make better beer.
MHB

 

[Nick JD]

The CUB worker whose job it is to push the ENTER button on the computer to start the VB should be able to enter. Poor ******* needs a holiday in Fiji having to clean all that factory gear.

It's the guys in the chemistry department at CUB who shouldn't be allowed to enter.

 

[jonocarroll]

The CUB worker whose job it is to push the ENTER button on the computer to start the VB should be able to enter. Poor ******* needs a holiday in Fiji having to clean all that factory gear.

It's the guys in the chemistry department at CUB who shouldn't be allowed to enter.

So, what's the difference between the guy who works in the CUB chemlab and the guy who works in the [insert state] water chemlab who happens to read up on the application of water to grain? What about someone who studied yeast for a decade but doesn't work in a brewery? What about someone who spent the last 20 years reading publicly available brewing material and perfecting their beers?

I reckon if you made it at home, on your own equipment, then it's legitimate homebrew. Don't go discriminating against people who happen to learn what they're doing, either professionally or on their own.

 

[DanRayner]

I voted yes. My opinion on the use of the word amateur in competitions: maybe it's not Amateur Brewer Cometitions but Amateur Brewing Comps? What I mean by that is the beers are produced in an amateur set-up, regardless of the professional/amateur status of the brewer and so in that way I'm sure we can keep the word amateur - homebrewing/homebrew has too many cheap-ass-thin-watery-foul-smelling-backyard-funk associations (at least it seems to with the general public out there) for me to want that in a competition's title.

Keep up the funky brews Brendan! I'll bet your employer will never let you brew gueuzes at work, right?

Akin to handing an American, Bear Grylls and the Chief of the Sentinelese a Big Mac and asking them to judge it.

You managed to bring a remote, aggressively independent Andaman Islander tribe into the discussion? That's gotta be the most estoteric reference in this whole thread. Top work!

 

[geoffd]

We'll have to list homebrewing in the olympics, all the pro's get to enter that comp except the boxers

I voted yes, but seeing as 30% of the audience object, I would have to say, like Julia & Penny in the labour party anti gay marriage stance; we should accept the view of the minority. It wouldnt make sense to allow 1% more people enter & to offend 30% of the current entrants.

Minority rules, that's why we dont live in a democracy