Malted Mick
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If that fails Novichok is the go, just keep the dose down to less than 1.9 to 3 mg/m3.
Star San V Chlorine
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TheAussieBrewer
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I'm planning on going down the Proxitane route as I step up to a higher production and CIP of fermenters, unitanks and boil kettle, do you see a need for both proxitane and phosphoric acid sanitisers in the brewery? I've read quite a bit about phosphoric acid being preferred for passivation. If there is no requirement for both I will phase out the phosphoric acid
wide eyed and legless
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No need for both, unless you find a need for both, it is said that it remains active for 1 hour but I have noticed it is still active after 2 or 3 hours, no need to let it dry either.
TheAussieBrewer
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Thanks mate, was thinking along the same lines.
In a commercial situation, you will need Caustic to clean the Hot Side (mash tun, kettle...) there is no way peroxitane (or starsan) will get equipment clean, there is no need to sanitise anything before the kettle either.
From the kettle down stream it gets a bit more complex. Peroxitane won't clean equipment, you will still need something to shift the soil and remove built-up proteins, again hot caustic is the standard. You will also need to control Beer Stone so you will need occasional acid washes, with a lot more acid than you will get from peroxitane at sanitising strengths, beer stone removers are usually a blend of Nitric and Phosphoric Acids with surfactants.
The one we use is called Shift-A and if you use it hot for an hour or two in a CIP it will remove beer stone and keep the surfaces passivated.
There is no way on earth that starsan will passivate stainless, I doubt it will even if you used it undiluted, it simply isn't made for the job, nor is peroxitane, they are both sanitisers, to sanitise, clean first then sanitise.
To passivate properly, you need a passivating chemical mix, mostly as above Nitric/Phosphoric, some contain Hydrofluoric acid. Use with caution and only when needed, passivation is the chemical removal of Iron (Fe) from the surface, leaving a Chromium/Nickel rich surface that when oxidised is more resistant to chemicals (inc O2).
If you are going to spend serious money on commercial sized/quality equipment, at a minimum talk to a specialist chemical supplier and take their advice on both the chemicals to use and the way they must be used.
Not doing it right results in either bad beer or destroyed equipment - neither is what you are looking for.
FFS ask a Pro!
Mark
From the kettle down stream it gets a bit more complex. Peroxitane won't clean equipment, you will still need something to shift the soil and remove built-up proteins, again hot caustic is the standard. You will also need to control Beer Stone so you will need occasional acid washes, with a lot more acid than you will get from peroxitane at sanitising strengths, beer stone removers are usually a blend of Nitric and Phosphoric Acids with surfactants.
The one we use is called Shift-A and if you use it hot for an hour or two in a CIP it will remove beer stone and keep the surfaces passivated.
There is no way on earth that starsan will passivate stainless, I doubt it will even if you used it undiluted, it simply isn't made for the job, nor is peroxitane, they are both sanitisers, to sanitise, clean first then sanitise.
To passivate properly, you need a passivating chemical mix, mostly as above Nitric/Phosphoric, some contain Hydrofluoric acid. Use with caution and only when needed, passivation is the chemical removal of Iron (Fe) from the surface, leaving a Chromium/Nickel rich surface that when oxidised is more resistant to chemicals (inc O2).
If you are going to spend serious money on commercial sized/quality equipment, at a minimum talk to a specialist chemical supplier and take their advice on both the chemicals to use and the way they must be used.
Not doing it right results in either bad beer or destroyed equipment - neither is what you are looking for.
FFS ask a Pro!
Mark
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kadmium
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Oxygen will passivate stainless steel, unless it has been welded etc. For light surface rust, a good clean with a dedicated cleaner like PBW and a scrub with a non scratch chuck (not stainless steel) will remove surface rust. Then, a good rinse and let air dry. Oxygen will passivate the surface of the inside of a keg or other light areas well enough for homebrew scale. So no, you don't need to fill a keg with pure starsan to passivate it, simply a thorough clean to remove rust and then an air dry will do the job.
Something like ABC or other dedicated brewery washes that contain more than just perc work well at cleaning off beer stone and other things, if used according to instructions.
I agree with MHB, if you are spending money on commercial equipment, then get advice from the manufacturer on what to do. But for the small scale homebrewer, something like PBW, a non scratch chux (the blue ones are good) and an acid based sanitiser are very effective when used for what they were designed for.
Something like ABC or other dedicated brewery washes that contain more than just perc work well at cleaning off beer stone and other things, if used according to instructions.
I agree with MHB, if you are spending money on commercial equipment, then get advice from the manufacturer on what to do. But for the small scale homebrewer, something like PBW, a non scratch chux (the blue ones are good) and an acid based sanitiser are very effective when used for what they were designed for.
Malted Mick
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"To passivate properly, you need a passivating chemical mix, mostly as above Nitric/Phosphoric, some contain Hydrofluoric acid. Use with caution and only when needed, passivation is the chemical removal of Iron (Fe) from the surface, leaving a Chromium/Nickel rich surface that when oxodised is more resistant to chemicals (inc O2). ''
Correct MHB.
As a side note the weld pickling gels or pastes that where used when I was on the tools are restricted now. Hydrofluoric/Nitric acid gave instant results to remove discolouration, oxides and restore the chromium surface which gives stainless steel it protection. It is not sold to the public anymore I beleive and has been replaced by citric acid based products. Just as well as it was extremely dangerous in the wrong hands, but it worked like nothing else around now!
Correct MHB.
As a side note the weld pickling gels or pastes that where used when I was on the tools are restricted now. Hydrofluoric/Nitric acid gave instant results to remove discolouration, oxides and restore the chromium surface which gives stainless steel it protection. It is not sold to the public anymore I beleive and has been replaced by citric acid based products. Just as well as it was extremely dangerous in the wrong hands, but it worked like nothing else around now!
Magic stuff, glad I have a big jar left of the old N/F gel.
An alkaline cleaner (PBW) wont remove an alkaline soil (beer stone is mostly Calcium Oxalate) you need an acid to remove it, or an abrasive which will remove tank to.
If you don't chemically enrich the surface it wont be passivated, remove surface rust from stainless and it will just come back if you don't reduce the Fe content of the surface - that takes an acid at the right concentration.
Citric acid on its own wont do the job, it simply isn't reactive enough. Yes some preparations use Citric in them but its not just citric.
Mark
An alkaline cleaner (PBW) wont remove an alkaline soil (beer stone is mostly Calcium Oxalate) you need an acid to remove it, or an abrasive which will remove tank to.
If you don't chemically enrich the surface it wont be passivated, remove surface rust from stainless and it will just come back if you don't reduce the Fe content of the surface - that takes an acid at the right concentration.
Citric acid on its own wont do the job, it simply isn't reactive enough. Yes some preparations use Citric in them but its not just citric.
Mark
kadmium
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Correct, to passivate 'properly' but oxygen in the air ill passivate stainless steel. A good, thorough cleaning of the metal will be good enough for home brew usage. Not sure why we need to go over it and over it. Nitric acid is best practice, air will passivate stainless steel if it's cleaned properly. It won't be as robust, but it will do the job.
Were that the case it wouldn't have rusted in the first place.
Sure its going to depend on the grade of stainless, but I think we can be sure home brew equipment made in China isn't going to be rich enough in Ni/Cr to self passivate, like I said if it was it wouldn't be rusting.
Mark
Sure its going to depend on the grade of stainless, but I think we can be sure home brew equipment made in China isn't going to be rich enough in Ni/Cr to self passivate, like I said if it was it wouldn't be rusting.
Mark
kadmium
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Op said it rusted cause he used bleach on it. While I admit I'm not an expert in the field of stainless steel and passivation, it could be reasonable to assume the kegs are an adequate quality of stainless steel to self passivate enough to withstand home brew.
All I am saying is that you don't need nitric acid and pickling gels to restore your keg or other SS items to an acceptable standard, in my own experience.
Nor do you need to use acids to clean beer stones, as I have found Atomic ABC brewery cleaner does the job well.
Nor should you apply what you do at the home brew scale to what you do commercially, just like I don't apply what commercial breweries do at the home brew level.
All I am saying is that you don't need nitric acid and pickling gels to restore your keg or other SS items to an acceptable standard, in my own experience.
Nor do you need to use acids to clean beer stones, as I have found Atomic ABC brewery cleaner does the job well.
Nor should you apply what you do at the home brew scale to what you do commercially, just like I don't apply what commercial breweries do at the home brew level.
DarrenTheDrunk
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Wholly shit... being an accountant clearly is not enough to home brew...one needs to be a bloody chemical scientist. God help me... !!!
kadmium - there is no difference between what works at any size. same malt, same water... same chemistry
Been a home brewer for a very long time, still am. Have studied a bit of chemistry along with brewing, every thing I do know about maintaining stainless equipment tells me that just using PBW alone isn't enough.
Sure you can clean off rust but to keep the stainless nature of the surface you need to modify it (passivate) or it will just start rusting again.
I'll bow out and hope someone with a bit more chemistry or knowledge of stainless steel is left on AHB and will chime in.
Mark
Been a home brewer for a very long time, still am. Have studied a bit of chemistry along with brewing, every thing I do know about maintaining stainless equipment tells me that just using PBW alone isn't enough.
Sure you can clean off rust but to keep the stainless nature of the surface you need to modify it (passivate) or it will just start rusting again.
I'll bow out and hope someone with a bit more chemistry or knowledge of stainless steel is left on AHB and will chime in.
Mark
Malted Mick
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Yes DTD to fully understand the properties and performance of stainless steel you need to be a materials scientist or metallurgist. I do not have that qualification but speaking from my 40 plus years practicle experience stainless steel is prone to all sorts of corrosion issues. Intergranular, crevice, preferential and many other forms of degredation to name a few.
Maybe I should have started another thread, Please respect and care for your stainless steel! Oxidisers like Chlorine promote ferric oxide formation. (Called rust or tea stains)
What is stainless steel? SS has a minimum of 11% chrome. The 18/8 group, 300 series like 304 contain 18% chrome/8% nickel. Next up the ladder is 316 & 316L which have the addition of molybdenum, the L denotes low carbon weld grade. The super duplex SS has over 20% chromium but you would need to mortgage your house to get a corny made from super duplex. Point being is that Mark is correct in that some grades of SS will just not have enough chromium to prevent rusting or corrosion. 304 SS out of China from unscrupulous suppliers may not meet the ASTM minimum specifications for composition of chromium. Chromium is a very expensive metal, less chromium more profit. I am not saying the 304 out there in brew gear is not 304, but buyer beware. I would expect that KK & KL have material test certificates and heat numbers from their suppliers to assure us the 304 meets ASTM specs.
I have been on projects where the stainless steel components have been basically locked down and quarantined to prevent ferrous contamination which is the main cause of SS corrosion issues. All materials, chemicals, tools, process or whatever has to be approved for use on SS. You are correct Kad in that oxygen is required for the chromium oxide to form and protect the surface, but first of all the contaminants must be removed completely. To get the best performance out of SS you need the regeneration of a new passive chromium enriched surface. As I mentioned earlier dangerous acids that rengenerate a passive surface most effectively are unsafe to use. Safe products like CitriSurf are on the market for cleaning of SS to try. The solution is to look after your SS best you can and not let it get contaminated.
As a side note most large volume production passivation and polishing of SS is now carried out by electrochemical means. Which I know absolutely nothing about!
kadmium
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I was only simply trying to point out that a thorough clean using something that will remove organic deposits and oils, with a good scrub using a non scratch pad, and air dry will be sufficient for light surface rusting.
Not much else you can do on a home level, other than using acids etc. I wasn't saying you should just leave your stuff out in the sun and she'll be right lol.
I have zero experience in metallurgy etc, and learned quite a bit from both you and MHB, so like I said I'm far from knowledgeable on the subject.
Not much else you can do on a home level, other than using acids etc. I wasn't saying you should just leave your stuff out in the sun and she'll be right lol.
I have zero experience in metallurgy etc, and learned quite a bit from both you and MHB, so like I said I'm far from knowledgeable on the subject.
Malted Mick
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Good and very important point I forgot to mention that mechanical damage to SS is a corrosion issue. SS scratches very easily and causes crevices where oxygen is depleted and starts a corrosion cell.
butisitart
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i agree.
if you're unsure, just baygon it.
i do. works a treat.
people get into different things with homebrew - probably reflects on their other life. some get into the science while others, like me, don't get overly passionate about that side. but then i get into freestyle recipes and grain flavours, which probably bores some other brewers shitless. something for everyone LOL
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butisitart
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how true. slight digression here, but this is what i don't get about wanting to clone a commercial beer. eg, i make fivex - it's a generation better than fourex. same basic ingredients, cluster on pride of ringwood etc, but it's all grain, not 98% dextrose with a sniff of grain to colour it. it's what fourex could taste like if they didn't gouge the flavour out of it for commercial ends.
so if you're going to actually clone almost any beer on the market, you're going to brew garbage. you should do a lot better simply by virtue of making it on homebrew scale. it might be a challenge to emulate eg newcastle brown or a little creatures pale, but when you get the flavour profile down, then there's no competition.
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