Professional Vs Amateur - Competitions

[DU99]

but people have been saying Cans of Goo,are rubbish,but yet some are saying can turn a sours ear into a silk purse

 

[mintsauce]

Are you an actual Brewer? (I.e. brewer with free range to experiment with recipes make changes etc) as that would mean you spend your 40 hours a week getting paid to research etc to then beat us amateurs who only spend a few hours a week... I would feel that would be the difference.

However if you simply work at a brewery producing batches of beer as per instructions/procedures given to you then I'd say you can enter the amateur comps Perhaps a little discrestion required.

 

[churchy]

I supose it's ok to enter, but if your a judge at a competition and have a beer entered in a particular category you should be exempt from scoring in that category as not to give a inflated score <_<


Andrew

 

[mika]

All very intriguing.
There's probably nothing within a professional brewing setup that isnt aquirable at home by a well (very well perhaps) funded homebrewer. There are already homebrewers around with lab equipment enabling them to do cell counts on yeast (something most mircobreweries wouldn't have) and there's plenty of homebrewers with stainless conicals and erlenmeyer flasks. And what respectable homebrewer nowadays doesn't have their fermenter in a fridge with +/- 1C temp control ?
It's already been discussed about homebrewers having similar or greater official qualifications than production brewers from teaching establishments, so knowledge base can't be the issue.
So what is really all that flash about being a 'professional' brewer ? Sure a nice Steinecker 100HL system would be fun to play with, with all it's SCADA control systems (HABs, Brewbot ?), wet milling (Tony's cup of water in the grist) and internal calandria's (surely there's someone ?) but at the end of the day, it's producing sugary water.
Still it does raise an interesting scenario about previously mentioned Brendan Varis brewing a batch of Hop Hog at work for 'home consumption' and then entering the batch into a local comp. Would the beer win ? And for those that say yes, what part of the process is making that a 'winning' beer ?
After hearing the 'How to win competitions' talk at the ANHC last year and the diversity of the systems and processes used, to me all entrants are welcome.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

I supose it's ok to enter, but if your a judge at a competition and have a beer entered in a particular category you should be exempt from scoring in that category as not to give a inflated score <_<


Andrew

Interesting point of view and one which needs to be consideration as this comp is the second biggest in Australia.
I am assuming that most of the amateur section judges at the PRBS will be local qualified BJCP guys and most will be West coast brewers members.
West coast brewers will make up a large percentage of the entries, so how can you judge and be a contestant ? The chances are that you will judge your own beers.
I know this will happen as it has happened to me before, I did mark my own beer down for that reason. It wasnt a year I won a trophy
Its not a comfortable place to be at as a judge and the main reason I dont want to judge this comp again.
I know Brendan O is a top judge and gives great feedback. Mate its going to be hard for you. You will be a "professional" a judge and a contestant.
GB

 

[MHB]

I have no objection to anyone entering a beer they have made themselves in any competition.
If you object to pro brewers entering you are I think objecting to Craft Brewers not the guys who work for the mega breweries, brewers there sit in little air-conditioned rooms and stare at computer screens all day, I suspect they never see malt or hops, just process diagrams.
Most of the craft brewers I know started as home brewers (good ones) and took the plunge. Often at personal financial risk, they are guys with boundless passion for brewing and most of them are more than happy to help fellow brewers and are the first to come to club events and do what they can to help others become better brewers.
As for the alleged advantage they have crap they cant get any ingredients that isnt available to you and me, most often we have access to better ingredients, we dont have accountants leaning over our shoulders. The same knowledge is available to us all.
I always thought the wussyst thread on AHB was the one complaining about Kit brewers taking the prizes that rightfully belonged to all grainers; reckon this one is a close second.
Treat comps as a way to learn, put up your best effort, if you dont do as well as you think you should use the feedback to make better beer.
MHB

 

[Nick JD]

The CUB worker whose job it is to push the ENTER button on the computer to start the VB should be able to enter. Poor bastard needs a holiday in Fiji having to clean all that factory gear.

It's the guys in the chemistry department at CUB who shouldn't be allowed to enter.

 

[jonocarroll]

The CUB worker whose job it is to push the ENTER button on the computer to start the VB should be able to enter. Poor bastard needs a holiday in Fiji having to clean all that factory gear.

It's the guys in the chemistry department at CUB who shouldn't be allowed to enter.

So, what's the difference between the guy who works in the CUB chemlab and the guy who works in the [insert state] water chemlab who happens to read up on the application of water to grain? What about someone who studied yeast for a decade but doesn't work in a brewery? What about someone who spent the last 20 years reading publicly available brewing material and perfecting their beers?

I reckon if you made it at home, on your own equipment, then it's legitimate homebrew. Don't go discriminating against people who happen to learn what they're doing, either professionally or on their own.

 

[DanRayner]

I voted yes. My opinion on the use of the word amateur in competitions: maybe it's not Amateur Brewer Cometitions but Amateur Brewing Comps? What I mean by that is the beers are produced in an amateur set-up, regardless of the professional/amateur status of the brewer and so in that way I'm sure we can keep the word amateur - homebrewing/homebrew has too many cheap-ass-thin-watery-foul-smelling-backyard-funk associations (at least it seems to with the general public out there) for me to want that in a competition's title.

Keep up the funky brews Brendan! I'll bet your employer will never let you brew gueuzes at work, right?

Akin to handing an American, Bear Grylls and the Chief of the Sentinelese a Big Mac and asking them to judge it.

You managed to bring a remote, aggressively independent Andaman Islander tribe into the discussion? That's gotta be the most estoteric reference in this whole thread. Top work!

 

[geoffd]

We'll have to list homebrewing in the olympics, all the pro's get to enter that comp except the boxers

I voted yes, but seeing as 30% of the audience object, I would have to say, like Julia & Penny in the labour party anti gay marriage stance; we should accept the view of the minority. It wouldnt make sense to allow 1% more people enter & to offend 30% of the current entrants.

Minority rules, that's why we dont live in a democracy

 

[Nick JD]

So, what's the difference between the guy who works in the CUB chemlab and the guy who works in the [insert state] water chemlab who happens to read up on the application of water to grain?

One of them has qualifications and experience specific to analysis of what makes beer good and what doesn't, and the other tests water for poop.

 

[jonocarroll]

It should be noted that professional brewers who use professional equipment aren't necessarily guaranteed to be great homebrewers. Different equipment, different skills.

One of them has qualifications and experience specific to analysis of what makes beer good and what doesn't, and the other tests water for poop.

Actually, the 'poop tester' likely has some similar qualifications for making water good, mineral analysis, chemistry, etc. I don't see how learning what makes good beer can somehow exclude you from doing so competitively if you're all using home-style equipment. Should we be restricting the rich? They have an advantage that they can buy heaps of stainless, heaps of top-quality ingredients, heaps of books (and have heaps of time for reading), and they still do everything at amateur level. Bastards!

Don't the big wineries enter the state/national comps along with the amateurs? Don't the amateurs kick their arses every so often?

 

[///]

Doesn't matter to me - I always come behind Barry C anyways when I enter any beer competition!

Scotty

 

[WarmBeer]

Doesn't matter to me - I always come behind Barry C anyways when I enter any beer competition!

Scotty

Probably because you're not using enough milk crates, or a wobbly enough card table.

ANHC, you had to be there.

 

[manticle]

Pros should definitely be allowed in - if they beat me, I won't feel bad, if I beat them, I'll feel like a champ. Everyone wins.

I had one of brendano's beers in the recent funked case swap - glad he was allowed in that. Farmhouse IPA with brett = top drop.



Have commented enough now - I suppose I should actually vote.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

This thread is like a dog chasing its tail. Its amusing for a while then , well.................
Basically its up to the comp organisers and what we say means jack *****.
GB

 

[///]

Probably because you're not using enough milk crates, or a wobbly enough card table.

ANHC, you had to be there.

Yep, I have a fancy brew stand .... technology is such a bitch!

 

[Millet Man]

Personally I haven't entered in any comps since I "turned pro" but my homebrew setup is exactly the same as it has always been and it would be hard to use the experience gained on a 36 hL system to improve my 20 lt home brew setup. Commercial brewing to me is more about consistently hitting the right mash and ferment temps and recipe and making the same product batch after batch which is easier to do in big stainless vessels. Home brewing I can be more creative and it is more down to the skill of the brewer to manage the mash and ferment temps etc.

The only reason I'd want to enter a comp would be to try out some new recipes and get some feedback from judges, but I've never done it as I can usually find enough volunteers for that job!

Cheers, Andrew.

 

[browndog]

Doesn't matter to me - I always come behind Barry C anyways when I enter any beer competition!

Scotty

Well, you need to try brewing in the back yard under a tree!

 

[stuchambers]

I know there is a professional commercial brewer however is there such thing as, a professional home brewer?

Cheers Stu

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Ah "brewers who are brewing commercially that brew at home "? Where is that dog chasing its tail , ah amusing.
I am giving up on this thread. Brendan I hope you get through, you are one of the better brewers and judges and hope to beat you this year .
GB

 

[churchy]

Nev can you supply me the ingediants to beat you.lol

Ps I have started brewing for the Royal show.Need a few months to condition





Andrew

 

[brendanos]

I had one of brendano's beers in the recent funked case swap - glad he was allowed in that. Farmhouse IPA with brett = top drop.

Ah that was the OTHER Brendan (and wasn't it an amazing beer!) I brewed a Berliner Weisse

so how can you judge and be a contestant ? The chances are that you will judge your own beers.
I know this will happen as it has happened to me before, I did mark my own beer down for that reason. It wasnt a year I won a trophy
Its not a comfortable place to be at as a judge and the main reason I dont want to judge this comp again.
I know Brendan O is a top judge and gives great feedback. Mate its going to be hard for you. You will be a "professional" a judge and a contestant.
GB

Many people have raised this issue. In the comps that I have organised/run/judged I have made every effort to ensure judges do not judge categories that they have entered - though there is the odd occasion when a lack of judges/volunteers or increased entries has led to someone judging their own beer, in which case the judge has been instructed beforehand to passively agree with the other judges and score their own beer somewhere inbetween other judges scores (and their score does not count). The top commercial judges I've talked to think that if you can't judge your own beer objectively then you shouldn't be judging.

Competition coordinators/head judges make every effort to ensure that brewers don't judge their own beers, but it is hard when the most passionate/dedicated brewers that enter heaps of beers into comps are also the ones that donate their time to make the comps happen. BJCP frown heavily upon it, and the commercial guys do too (ie Perth Royal Beer Show) - but they don't really have a choice when the brewers are the only ones that have spent the time to understand beer flavour in depth and that are willing to give up their time to judge. If you don't like the idea of someone judging their own beer (higher than yours...? - I have seen a few brewers scoresheets for their own beers in the past and they are usually more critical/score themselves lower than the others on their panel!), then help out by stewarding or learning to judge. I am not going to stop entering my homebrew into competitions because I am judging/organising them, and similarly I am not going to stop judging competitions just because I have entered them. The industry is still tiny and there are not yet enough people willing to give up their time or palate for the good of beer. I will however act professionally (and as per BJCP's recommendations) with regards to confidentiality of entrants/entries etc.

Yes I have morals and no I'm not going to do any of the silly or underhanded things that some have suggested (or perhaps just mentioned for the sake of discussion?) but to be excluded altogether would make me very, very sad. I know things are getting better, judges (and drinkers) are getting more educated, and every comp I am involved with gets better every year. We just need more volunteers!

 

[Thirsty Boy]

The CUB worker whose job it is to push the ENTER button on the computer to start the VB should be able to enter. Poor bastard needs a holiday in Fiji having to clean all that factory gear.

It's the guys in the chemistry department at CUB who shouldn't be allowed to enter.

I choose to stay out of the original topic - i guess its obvious what my opinion would be anyway.

But this is a funny one - this post and a few others like it . You guys are so damn sure, so convinced, that the processes in big commercial "mega" breweries are completely alien to what you consider "making beer" that it is essentially a different thing entirely -- but yesterday, i watched the guy that "sits in the airconditioned room i front of a screen" who pushes the ENTER button - white like a ghost (covered in grain dust from sorting out an issue with one of the mills - run up three flights of stairs to manually adjust a steam valve because the mash temperature was coming in a degree lower than it should, before running down another flight of stairs to watch the flow through the lauter grant die off to a trickle because we had a sticky/stuck mash - then spend 20 minutes cursing, racking, underflushing and vorlauffing in order to get it going properly again. And once it was going, shone a torch on it and watched it for 15 minutes, listened to the pumps to make sure they were running properly and checked the gravity, flow rate & differential pressures were where they should be..... Then he went back upstairs, and at the exact minute he needed to in order to balance the throughputs of two independent brewing plants simultaneously brewing 3 batches of beer each at any given time... "Pushed the ENTER button to start the next batch of VB".

If the head brewer of fosters decides to enter a homebrew comp - no need for you to worry, he's spent most of the last decade more worried about the overtime budget than how to brew good beer - If the guy who runs the lab enters a HB comp, well, he knows how to work out the vikinal diketone level of a beer to the nth part per billion, but couldn't make a beer from scratch to save his life - no need to worry.

But - and i know all of them personally - if the "guys who push the ENTER button" ever decide they are interested in making homebrew, build themselves a brewery and enter the comps.... Then you should start to be really really worried. These guys can shut their eyes and hear whether a brewery plant that has 13 x major vessels, 10 x heat exchangers, 4 x 6 roller mills, 8 x grain silos, 6 x sugar tanks, 6 x caustic system tanks about 50 pumps and 25 or so grain elevators, weighers and cleaners, is 30 or so years old and as quirky as hell and punches out 19 x 100,000L + brews per day - is running properly; and without looking know what to do to fix it if it isn't... These guys are Brewers - they might brew beers that you the beer geeks of the world dont like, but thats their job, and they do it bloody well. They are brewers - and next to them, i dont care who the hell you are - you are a chump. If they ever decide to make hombrew, they will be better at it than you - period.

The chances of these blokes entering is next to nill, they have no interest in what you are interested in - but the patronising attitude towards them is giving me the squirting *****. You blokes (well most of you) have no goddamned idea what goes on in a large brewery and couldn't handle it if you did - before you make your "ooh, i do it at home, so i must be an expert..." noises, try having a chat with someone who really is - and then pull your ******g heads in a little.

 

[fraser_john]

I choose to stay out of the original topic - i guess its obvious what my opinion would be anyway.

<snip>

Brilliant TB

 

[manticle]

Ah that was the OTHER Brendan (and wasn't it an amazing beer!) I brewed a Berliner Weisse

Realised the mistake yesterday. Brenosbrews and brendanos.

 

[schooey]

I choose to stay out of the original topic - i guess its obvious what my opinion would be anyway.

But this is a funny one - this post and a few others like it . You guys are so damn sure, so convinced, that the processes in big commercial "mega" breweries are completely alien to what you consider "making beer" that it is essentially a different thing entirely -- but yesterday, i watched the guy that "sits in the airconditioned room i front of a screen" who pushes the ENTER button - white like a ghost (covered in grain dust from sorting out an issue with one of the mills - run up three flights of stairs to manually adjust a steam valve because the mash temperature was coming in a degree lower than it should, before running down another flight of stairs to watch the flow through the lauter grant die off to a trickle because we had a sticky/stuck mash - then spend 20 minutes cursing, racking, underflushing and vorlauffing in order to get it going properly again. And once it was going, shone a torch on it and watched it for 15 minutes, listened to the pumps to make sure they were running properly and checked the gravity, flow rate & differential pressures were where they should be..... Then he went back upstairs, and at the exact minute he needed to in order to balance the throughputs of two independent brewing plants simultaneously brewing 3 batches of beer each at any given time... "Pushed the ENTER button to start the next batch of VB".

If the head brewer of fosters decides to enter a homebrew comp - no need for you to worry, he's spent most of the last decade more worried about the overtime budget than how to brew good beer - If the guy who runs the lab enters a HB comp, well, he knows how to work out the vikinal diketone level of a beer to the nth part per billion, but couldn't make a beer from scratch to save his life - no need to worry.

But - and i know all of them personally - if the "guys who push the ENTER button" ever decide they are interested in making homebrew, build themselves a brewery and enter the comps.... Then you should start to be really really worried. These guys can shut their eyes and hear whether a brewery plant that has 13 x major vessels, 10 x heat exchangers, 4 x 6 roller mills, 8 x grain silos, 6 x sugar tanks, 6 x caustic system tanks about 50 pumps and 25 or so grain elevators, weighers and cleaners, is 30 or so years old and as quirky as hell and punches out 19 x 100,000L + brews per day - is running properly; and without looking know what to do to fix it if it isn't... These guys are Brewers - they might brew beers that you the beer geeks of the world dont like, but thats their job, and they do it bloody well. They are brewers - and next to them, i dont care who the hell you are - you are a chump. If they ever decide to make hombrew, they will be better at it than you - period.

The chances of these blokes entering is next to nill, they have no interest in what you are interested in - but the patronising attitude towards them is giving me the squirting *****. You blokes (well most of you) have no goddamned idea what goes on in a large brewery and couldn't handle it if you did - before you make your "ooh, i do it at home, so i must be an expert..." noises, try having a chat with someone who really is - and then pull your ******g heads in a little.

Great post, TB...

Not trying to be a smart ass or anything, but I have a genuine curiosity about what you have written. Now please don't get me wrong; I don't profess to be a brewers ringhole. I'm a bloke that owns a bit of brewing kit that can turn out the odd artistic impression of beer that I like to drink and sometimes others do too..

You have described in your post about how in tune the brewers are with their systems (breweries), how well they know their process and how to deal with all the quirks that can be thrown at them all the way from the mill to the lauter and from your words it sounds it sounds like they're bloody good at it. Mucho respect!

But to me, you've only described how good they are at the process side of being a brewer. It made me curious as to how involved they are in the recipe and development side of brewing. To me, the brewers that make the best beer seem to have all the bases covered from the mill to the bottle/keg. They understand balance of flavour, fermentation profiles, yeast profiles, what effect different grains will have, how a different hop will make a vast change if it's added 5 minutes later in the boil... yatter yatter. Do the guys you have described above have any input into this side of the beers they make? Do they care? Is that why they haven't jumped into the home brewing gig?

Anyway, like I said, just a genuine curiosity. I'm not trying to take away anything from these guys (be dreaming if I thought I could ), or trying to stir ****.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Exactly right - they have no input into the creative aspects of the process, and probably no real interest in having any. They make a beer (actually, just a wort) to a recipe, the make it exactly to that recipe, they get it right.

Most of them wouldn't know how to create a recipe, none of them will ever be given the chance. Would that stop them from doing well in a comp though? Hand one of them a copy of brewing classic styles and watch what happens. As it is, i'm the only person i am aware of, who will ever be one of these ENTER button pushers who has any abiding interest in beer beyond drink quantities of the mega variety - i enter the comps, and in about 6 months or a year i am going to start training to learn the ENTER button job - and i will always be the guy they get to do it when one of the good guys isn't available. I know my limitations - i can do that job, but i will never be one of the top operators. I will be happy if the management brewers dont all simultaneously cringe when they hear i am in charge of the wort plant today.

But thats it - the others wont ever do it, so you are all safe from being molested in competition by the guys who actually do do this sort of stuff every day - except for me - and enough of you have tasted my beers to know that i'm no one to be worried abut

 

[haysie]

What a great insight TB, I nearly clicked the +1.
I thought the OP was about professional brewers not quasi factory workers who have no interest in HOMEBREWING. Thanks for the derailment of another thread.

 

[browndog]

Let's have a look at the rules for the AABC, which all our state comps comply (or should comply) with.

snip
D3. Amateur brews The competition is restricted to amateur brews, that is to beers that have not been brewed on premises licensed as a commercial brewery. Beers produced from extract kits and wort kits and Brew-On-Premises are allowed as they are not considered to be commercially brewed. Entries must be submitted under the brewers name.
snip

So there you have it, no problems at all for a professional brewer to brew at home and enter our state and national competitions. The way I see it, the pro brewers are of a far less concern than the quality of fresh wort kits these days. Joe blow who knows nothing about "brewing" and take a top quality FWK home, add some yeast and ferment it in the right conditions and hey presto, a comp winning beer. That is just not brewing in my books.

cheers

Browndog