Pilsner / Lager mash schedule

[Goose]

As opposed to my usual single step mash I thought I'd give a staged mash schedule a go. Came across this in my searches :

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter19-4.html

which as we know is from the guru of all things homebrewed however the mash schedule looks like this:

Rest Temperature Time
Protein (If Pils Malt) 125°F (51.6 C) 20 Mins
Beta Conversion 140°F (60.0 C) 30 mins
Alpha Conversion 158°F (70.0 C) 30 mins


Now 158°F is 70 deg C....Isnt that a tad hot for conversion ?

What do you guys do for pils step mashes ?

 

[antiphile]

For a genuine pilsner style, I do something similar to this:
Protein rest @ 50C for 15 mins
Saccharification 1 @63C for 30 mins
Saccharification 2 @69C for 30 mins
Mash out and sparge @ 76

For a lager I prefer a bit more maltiness, so often its:
Protein rest @ 50C for 15 mins
Saccharification @ 64 for 60 mins
Mash out and sparge @ 76

Soemtimes I'll add an acid rest, but I'm not convinced it's really needed. The best pilsner I ever made was a triple decoction, but it's a bit more fuffing around and adds almost 45 mins to the mash step. Yet, the result really was "birdy num num".

 

[Black n Tan]

Looks like a modified hochkurz mash profile. I would do the protein rest at 55c and only for about 5 minutes. Most modern pils malts are well modified and an extended rest at 52C may be detrimental to head retention. I would perform the beta-amylase rest at 63c. The alpha rest is fine at 70c. So something like: 55C/5', 63C/30', 70C/30'. Extending the duration of the alpha rest will make for higher attenuation and shortening it will give more body. More info here http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Infusion_Mashing

 

[antiphile]

Thanks, B&T! I'd never heard it called that before, and thanks for tthe link too. Always something more for me to learn. I must admit my main reason for the protein rest length was that, by the time I finish doughing in and faffing around, it usually takes me about 15 min to get the HLT heated sufficiently for the next temp step. Now I'll have to revise my techniques so it can be done more quickly,
Cheers, Big Boy

 

[Goose]

Looks like a modified hochkurz mash profile. I would do the protein rest at 55c and only for about 5 minutes. Most modern pils malts are well modified and an extended rest at 52C may be detrimental to head retention. I would perform the beta-amylase rest at 63c. The alpha rest is fine at 70c. So something like: 55C/5', 63C/30', 70C/30'. Extending the duration of the alpha rest will make for higher attenuation and shortening it will give more body. More info here http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Infusion_Mashing

good info. I'll give this a shot and see how it turns out.

 

[Black n Tan]

Looks like a modified hochkurz mash profile. I would do the protein rest at 55c and only for about 5 minutes. Most modern pils malts are well modified and an extended rest at 52C may be detrimental to head retention. I would perform the beta-amylase rest at 63c. The alpha rest is fine at 70c. So something like: 55C/5', 63C/30', 70C/30'. Extending the duration of the alpha rest will make for higher attenuation and shortening it will give more body. More info here http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Infusion_Mashing

I mean extending or shortening the beta rest, not the alpha rest

 

[Bribie G]

Haha yes I often get confused as well, a bit like the difference between the Summer Equinox and the Summer Solstice.

 

[labels]

Haha yes I often get confused as well, a bit like the difference between the Summer Equinox and the Summer Solstice.

Summer equinox?

 

[antiphile]

Yeah labels. That's when the foals celebrate their 4 month birthday.

 

[Rocker1986]

I'm currently playing with Hochkurz schedules on my pilsners as well. My two temp rests are 63 and 69 then up to 78 mash out, but haven't quite worked out where I want the times for the conversion rests yet... that will come in time. It's fun to experiment though.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

My first properly temp control fermented Lager/Pilsner I 've made turned out awesome. Good effeciency and frkn good to drink. Mashed in esky for 90 minutes. Temp started at 65c after 90 min was 60c. Batch Sparged well with 76c water. I find this works well. It all depends on equipment I think. How did mash scheduled temps come to be other than raising the temp on large scale mash. That's my layman's interpretation.

FG = 1.006. :chug:

 

[thefrothologist]

Protein rest at 50-52˚C is fine. Alpha can probably go up to 72˚C before denaturing. Beta has a pretty wide range as well from below 60˚C up to the mid to high 60's which is why the mid 60's is a good zone to achieve a combined conversion. If you're step mashing remember that the step time should be factored in as conversion will still be happening as the temp is rising and before the enzymes are being denatured.

I've tested out mashing in at 50˚C on my RIMS system and then immediately ramping up the temp to my sacch rest temp with good results. Figure a little protein rest can't hurt and if you're heading for the higher alpha conversion rates it contributes some good conversion swinging through the beta range. Happy for some reflection on what this might be doing to my beers...

 

[manticle]

Denaturing is a function of time and temp (and other factors like pH). Alpha quite enjoys low 70s but is rapidly destroyed around 80.
Protein rests in low to mid 50s are fine, provided they are not extended and there is no need nor benefit to extend them. Talking of well modified 2 row stuff which is mostly what's commercially available here.

 

[sponge]

I'm a bit of a fan of a slow rise through the 60's. 60-90min rise between 60-70'C has produced me some nice lagers.

 

[The Judge]

For a lager I prefer a bit more maltiness, so often its:
Protein rest @ 50C for 15 mins
Saccharification @ 64 for 60 mins
Mash out and sparge @ 76

How does a longer rest in the beta give a maltier beer? I understand that it creates small sugar chains, resulting in a drier beer (less residual large-chain sugars). Aren't the Maillard reaction products primarily responsible for maltiness, with alpha rest also contributing malty mouthfeel?

Let me know! Cheers

 

[Goose]

I'm a bit of a fan of a slow rise through the 60's. 60-90min rise between 60-70'C has produced me some nice lagers.

Sounds sensible.

Aside from initial strike target, I have to heat the mash tun directly to reach each rest stage and each rise of 1 deg takes about 1.5 minutes. Therefore I often wonder what happens as I ramp up from protein to beta then alpha and whether most of what I am trying to attempt in the rest has already been achieved in the ramp up time.

Hence I quite like the idea of a strike at protein (55 deg C) then a 90 minute ramp to mashout (76) but thinking this would be really tricky to achieve manually and to do repeatably would require some kind of automatic sensor and controller of the heat input to the mash tun.

 

[sponge]

It's definitely more practical when the mash is automated (PID controlled) but could always be split into a few steps instead of one long ramp.

I'll quite often just mash in at 60 and ramp through to mash out over 90min. Sometimes I like to break it up with a 60-90min ramp over low/mid 60's and a 30min for the remainder to dry it out a touch more.

All personal preference though.

 

[thefrothologist]

I think that a ramp from protein to alpha over 90 min would not give you enough "optimum" enzyme activity time, as mentioned earlier in the thread the temp, time at that temp, ph, and mash thickness all contribute to how well they convert the starches into sugars, German brewers have been brewing alt beer for centuries using defined steps and holding those steps for a certain time, all differing quite a bit though!

 

[antiphile]

How does a longer rest in the beta give a maltier beer? I understand that it creates small sugar chains, resulting in a drier beer (less residual large-chain sugars). Aren't the Maillard reaction products primarily responsible for maltiness, with alpha rest also contributing malty mouthfeel?

Let me know! Cheers

Hi Judge
Without the 67 to 70C rest in the preferred alpha-amylase range, there is less enzyme conversion of the sugar, and this results in a less dry (maltier) taste. This is in comparison to my preferred pilsner-style mash where there is a step in preferred temp range for both the beta (62 to 65C) and the alpha (67 to 70C) conversion steps.
Cheers

 

[The Judge]

Ahh I see what you're saying. You're assuming that the rest finishes before all the amylose is converted to maltose.

But our malts are so well modified nowadays that the diastatic power of the grain can convert a mash in around 15 minutes. A rest in the alpha range would result in fewer fermentable sugars and a maltier beer. A rest in the mid range would optimise both amylases which, 100 years ago, would have given the quickest conversion and the driest beer.

However, proof is always in the taste.