Vienna lager - better efficiency

[Bribie G]

Chris I'm doing a full volume BIAB brew today with a fair amount of Vienna as well as Barrett Burston pale and I'll post a piccie of some spent grains later this evening by way of comparison.
As LC says, the ones in the photo look way too coarse IMHO.

With regard to Mark, he's a guy to follow. I remember when he was at Islington, even using a pretty nifty industrial sized mill (ex Murrays I think) he would always check the grist by rubbing some between his hands, in case of uncracked grains.

 

[Chris79]

Two things leap out: you have a very high percentage of whole corns, and there looks to be unmodified starch in some of the cracked corns (top right hand corner is an example).

Lyrebird by whole corn I assume your referring to the barley? So, therefore the barley could have been crushed finer?

What does unmodified starch look like? And if there's unmodified starch then the conversion was incomplete? Have I got that right? Or is that caused by something else?

 

[Chris79]

Chris I'm doing a full volume BIAB brew today with a fair amount of Vienna as well as Barrett Burston pale and I'll post a piccie of some spent grains later this evening by way of comparison.
As LC says, the ones in the photo look way too coarse IMHO.

With regard to Mark, he's a guy to follow. I remember when he was at Islington, even using a pretty nifty industrial sized mill (ex Murrays I think) he would always check the grist by rubbing some between his hands, in case of uncracked grains.

Bribie, look forward to seeing what your grains look like. I'm beginning to think it is multifaceted like Mark has been saying, including some of either my processes or equipment calibration.

Bribie, I always read Mark's post with keen interest. Not sure if you sensed any ill in what I said, but I didn't mean anything like that.

But, it would seem part of what needs addressing is the size of the crush.

 

[Chris79]

To knock your efficiency down to 45% the malt would have to be barely crushed if at all (I think it was Thirstyboy who tried mashing uncrushed malt and got a similar yield), still well worth checking.
Uncrushed grain looks like little beads or pearls among the grist, ones you see them its pretty obvious. Spread a handful out on a dark surface.
Its rarely one thing that gives really low efficiency but rather a sum of several working together. If you are having a look at your expended malt look for dry bits (dough balls) and I always taste my expended malt (not perhaps out of the compost bin) if it tastes sweet - that's extract left behind - and it points to poor lautering...
Getting 80% plus isn't hard and usually is just getting the basics right, often hard when you are starting out to know what to look at first.
Mark

Thanks for all those points Mark!

I didn't know that about what spent malt shoukd taste like. So what should it taste like?

I will look into checking the calibration of my equipment as you guys have suggested.

 

[MHB]

Brewman now has my old mill - Ex Bluetongue actually and the even bigger version (7") of the same model they have at Murrays, rated to 1100kg/hour rather than their little (6") 900kg one. Best thing about it is that its really easy to adjust, when you are suppling home brewers they all want different cracks and different malts behave differently at the same setting, easy adjustment and what it called "Hand Evaluation" of the crush is very important if you want to sell lots of different malts to different customers with different systems.
The Ordering tool (BrewBuilder) at Brewman lets you choose the crush, worth playing with until you get the setting that works best for you.
It might be worth your while getting a grain bill from some one else and seeing how that goes; if you don't get a better result from your current supplier.

As for the flavour, it tastes like wort and grist mixed together (sweet), when all the extract is removed more like dry grass or hay.
The individual seeds of any grain is called a "Corn" as is in a corn mill is a mill for any type of grain not just maize, and yes its a corn of maize, probably why pro-brewers call Corn, Maize, to save on confusion.

Looking at the picture you posted of your grist, LC is dead on there are an alarming number of uncracked corns, which will account for a large fraction of your lost efficiency, but even 65% isn't all that great, so its unlikely the only problem - work to do, fun to be had...
Mark

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Lyrebird by whole corn I assume your referring to the barley? So, therefore the barley could have been crushed finer?

What does unmodified starch look like? And if there's unmodified starch then the conversion was incomplete? Have I got that right? Or is that caused by something else?

Yes, corn is an old English word for grain. It got co-opted to describe the grain which is properly maize because the early settlers in the US called maize "Indian corn". Maltsters tend to refer to individual malt grains as corns.

Unmodified starch will show up as firm bits in the grist pieces*. If it's white and slightly chalky the starch granules didn't gelatinise properly which is usually due to poor mash mixing. If it's translucent the starch gelatinised but wasn't converted, which can have many causes.

* but not the long thin bit that looks like a miniaturised beanshoot, that's the "acrospire", the part that the barley grain was trying to make into a new barley plant before the maltster cruelly dashed its chances by killing it with fire.

 

[Bribie G]

Here's the pre-mash grains (doughing in shortly). The big bits are all empty husks.

I use a Marga mill that I modified from a thread on AHB about 10 years old and get a finer crush by drilling an extra hole in a certain control wheel ... wouldn't have a clue what the actual gap is but this crush gives me a pretty consistent 74% efficiency - you could set your clock by it. I'll be interested in what I get with my new bulk buy mill when I get it settled down.

 

[Bribie G]

Totally off topic but a couple of centuries ago, bulk salt was sold in big granules that resembled wheat grains, and were called "corns" of salt.
When used to preserve boiled beef for sea voyages, winter usage whatever the product came to be known as "corned beef".
Again nothing to do with maize.

Now where were we?...................

 

[Jack of all biers]

Well, I was away for the morning and the boys have provided you some great insight. Between them there is a wealth of brewing knowledge there.

Wow, that photo shows a lot of un-crushed corns. I stopped counting at 15! Considering the small amount you have there that percentage is terrible indeed. Maybe show your home brew store that photo when you explain your issue. It must have slipped through when they milled it. We all make mistakes and don't be too hard on them.

Still it's a good learning experience and it would still be good for you to test your equipment and review your processes as you have said you will. At least you'll know for any future issues. As Lyrebird said, you have lots of unmodified starch there and there is also likely to be mix of issues (ie a process issue like mixing or dough balls going on too).

Great learning curve this hobby isn't it.

EDIT - grammar and general poor English used!

 

[Chris79]

Brewman now has my old mill - Ex Bluetongue actually and the even bigger version (7") of the same model they have at Murrays, rated to 1100kg/hour rather than their little (6") 900kg one. Best thing about it is that its really easy to adjust, when you are suppling home brewers they all want different cracks and different malts behave differently at the same setting, easy adjustment and what it called "Hand Evaluation" of the crush is very important if you want to sell lots of different malts to different customers with different systems.
The Ordering tool (BrewBuilder) at Brewman lets you choose the crush, worth playing with until you get the setting that works best for you.
It might be worth your while getting a grain bill from some one else and seeing how that goes; if you don't get a better result from your current supplier.

As for the flavour, it tastes like wort and grist mixed together (sweet), when all the extract is removed more like dry grass or hay.
The individual seeds of any grain is called a "Corn" as is in a corn mill is a mill for any type of grain not just maize, and yes its a corn of maize, probably why pro-brewers call Corn, Maize, to save on confusion.

Looking at the picture you posted of your grist, LC is dead on there are an alarming number of uncracked corns, which will account for a large fraction of your lost efficiency, but even 65% isn't all that great, so its unlikely the only problem - work to do, fun to be had...
Mark

I'll look into Brewman's order tool. Sounds a good idea.

Yes, I'll try getting my next grain bill from someone else.

I'll taste test my grain when I've completed my next mash. I didn't know they were classified like that.

So it's clear the crush is a factor....think my hydro is a factor too. I'll post a pic in that soon.

 

[Chris79]

Yes, corn is an old English word for grain. It got co-opted to describe the grain which is properly maize because the early settlers in the US called maize "Indian corn". Maltsters tend to refer to individual malt grains as corns.

Unmodified starch will show up as firm bits in the grist pieces*. If it's white and slightly chalky the starch granules didn't gelatinise properly which is usually due to poor mash mixing. If it's translucent the starch gelatinised but wasn't converted, which can have many causes.

* but not the long thin bit that looks like a miniaturised beanshoot, that's the "acrospire", the part that the barley grain was trying to make into a new barley plant before the maltster cruelly dashed its chances by killing it with fire.

Ok, cool. Didn't realise about that categorising of things.

I'll try and pay more attention to the colour of my grain and doing my mash. Thinking I might to make sure I stir and mix the grains more throughly at the start of the mash next time.

 

[Chris79]

Here's the pre-mash grains (doughing in shortly). The big bits are all empty husks.

I use a Marga mill that I modified from a thread on AHB about 10 years old and get a finer crush by drilling an extra hole in a certain control wheel ... wouldn't have a clue what the actual gap is but this crush gives me a pretty consistent 74% efficiency - you could set your clock by it. I'll be interested in what I get with my new bulk buy mill when I get it settled down.
View attachment 109093
View attachment 109091

Cool. Good to see someone else's cracked grains.

Really does look more broken down than mine!

I'll be interested to see what they look like after your mash. Thanks

 

[Chris79]

Testing my hydro. It's out of calibration, that's part of the problem!

I know it may be a bit hard to read, but I think it's reading 1.006.

So that means I'm getting readings that are giving me a lower or higher gravity? A bit foggy today, fighting off a virus. So my pre-boil read 1.030. My SG read 1.042. What should they have read?

Cheers again [emoji482]

 

[manticle]

Firstly, what temp is the water? It should be between 15-20 and if it is, hydro is reading about 6 points high.

If hotter, it will read lower than it should, if cooler, it will read higher.

 

[Bribie G]

Mash finished, all leached out and just husk stuff left. Spot on eff as usual.
Probably the last crush done with the Marga. RIP.

 

[Chris79]

Firstly, what temp is the water? It should be between 15-20 and if it is, hydro is reading about 6 points high.

If hotter, it will read lower than it should, if cooler, it will read higher.

I’ve just tested the water temp now, and it was 20.5. At that temp I just now got a reading of 1.008.

So give that the temp for taking a reading is ok, my hydro is reading 8 points higher than it should. Am I reading that then the right way?

So I’ll buy a new hydro soon!

 

[Chris79]

Thanks Bribie. Success again hitting your numbers!

 

[manticle]

I’ve just tested the water temp now, and it was 20.5. At that temp I just now got a reading of 1.008.

So give that the temp for taking a reading is ok, my hydro is reading 8 points higher than it should. Am I reading that then the right way?

So I’ll buy a new hydro soon!

Yeah 8 points higher.

What temp was the wort when you took your mash efficiency reading?

 

[Chris79]

I'm not sure, I took a cup of the wort out of the kettle. Cooled it down in the fridge. So I can't be sure what temp the wort was.

So going forward, I'll test the temp of my wort etc before I take readings etc.

I'll order a new hydro, test it with water at 15-20 c. Then make sure that the wort before boil or after is between 15-20 c before I take a reading, to know where I really stand!

Like Mark said, there were/are a number of factors at play here. It good to be isolating some of the problems, and get more clarity here. Cheers Manticle too

 

[malt junkie]

Mash finished, all leached out and just husk stuff left. Spot on eff as usual.
Probably the last crush done with the Marga. RIP.

View attachment 109103

It'll certainly be interesting to see side by side photos when you get the new mill, most with the mash master fluted have also reported efficiency increases too. I'm going to have to get the braumonster out of moth balls and see where the new limits are.