No Chill / Partial Chill / Full Chill Experiment

[donburke]

manticle has done a no chill and chill experiment off the one batch, I tasted both and could pick the no chill, for me it wasn't the bitterness it was more the harshness/smothness (maybe that is the bitterness ). No surprise the no chill was a little harsher, both we beautiful beers though.

do you remember the difference in flavour profile ?

 

[seamad]

I suppose the easiest way would pull a cube before the 20 addition, with the 20 min hops in the cube then chill cube via argon method, before pitching do a seperate 3-4 l boil for same time (5) as the aroma addition in the main boil. That is one approach ive tried.

 

[seamad]

Not sure how manticle did the experiment but i was under the impression he doesnt make time changes for no chill ?

 

[big78sam]

Sounds great. My only suggestion is to use a high AA hop as I'm not sure the difference would be noticable with cascade. Maybe galaxy, chinook or similar.

EDIT: I see a 10% hop was already suggested. I'd be inclined to go for 12 or 14% to make the differences stand out. If a blind tasting doesn't pick the difference with a 14% hop that would be a more definitive response.

 

[Fents]

I would not worry about the measured IBU, it's only a number. It is the perceived bitterness that we taste. ie 0min hop additions add no IBUs, but throw 3g/L of 10%AA hops in at 0min and I think it makes a huge difference to the bitterness taste.

Great idea, the only think I would like to see is a few people having a sample to get a few inputs. Could be worth doing a blind tasting of it.

QldKev

It may be only a number but perceived bitterness is only a personal perception. everyones tastebuds are different. everyone who regulary drinks 40+ IBU beers, well they are sort of immune to bitterness, same as smokers too, palates are ruined.

 

[stux]

Thats it, glasses are just numbered and the panel does not know which beer is in the sample, and they are sent out in a random order.
The panel record their notes against the glass number.

And not until all samples are tasted and recorded are they told which beers were in the glasses.

ps. you don't need to poke any eyes out

QldKev

Roll a dice twice to pick the numbers

3,4

4,5

5,3

4,6

etc


Hopefully you're going to prove/disprove the accepted theory that no-chill has less hop aroma and more bitterness... which is a satisfactory result...

Perhaps its simply enough to do the experiment, note the differences, and then perhaps propose a followup.

Alternatively, goose it with two bottles from each batch, but with a different set of numbers , that'll keep the tasters on their toes

 

[iralosavic]

I find 30ibu bitter haha

 

[qwertyjnr]

I find 30ibu bitter haha

ill happily volunteer to be a blind tester. located in toowoomba though.

 

[donburke]

ill happily volunteer to be a blind tester. located in toowoomba though.

i'll give you a couple of days notice

 

[iralosavic]

i'll give you a couple of days notice

View attachment 52711

I'll need a week's notice - prefer not to drive at night.

 

[Gar]

I'm with big78sam on the high alpha idea, and very late on.

Looking forward to the results though :beerbang:

 

[Nick JD]

Should do an ABX Test.

Start with the first one, labled with what's in the glass "No Chill" X.

Then in three other glasses labled A, B and C have the three brews (one of them will be the no chill brew).

Tasters have to pick which of A, B or C is X.

You will soon see if there's a significant difference between the beers by how many people pick it or don't - and how many times.

You might find that X an Z are impossible to pick, but Y is easy. You might find that the results get worse the longer the test is run.

Stop the test when the first person vomits. Discrimination Testing and Drinking Games ... finally the two combined!

 

[donburke]

Should do an ABX Test.

Start with the first one, labled with what's in the glass "No Chill" X.

Then in three other glasses labled A, B and C have the three brews (one of them will be the no chill brew).

Tasters have to pick which of A, B or C is X.

You will soon see if there's a significant difference between the beers by how many people pick it or don't - and how many times.

You might find that X an Z are impossible to pick, but Y is easy. You might find that the results get worse the longer the test is run.

Stop the test when the first person vomits. Discrimination Testing and Drinking Games ... finally the two combined!

slip a couple of drops of visine in "Y" then you'll know the person that got "Y" is the one who got up in a hurry

 

[Nick JD]

slip a couple of drops of visine in "Y" then you'll know the person that got "Y" is the one who got up in a hurry

Heh heh.

Everyone will have Y though - lots of times. You need a big set of data before any conclusions can be made.

 

[black_labb]

My concern is that the partial chill where you put it in at 70* would not be fully pasturised, though if you pitch the next day you should be fine. If you have a pool the "chuck it in the pool option" could be a better bet.

 

[donburke]

My concern is that the partial chill where you put it in at 70* would not be fully pasturised, though if you pitch the next day you should be fine. If you have a pool the "chuck it in the pool option" could be a better bet.

good, this is the sort of input i'm after

what temp would be recommended, if there is such a temperature, that will allow for sufficient pasteurisation without continued isomerisation

because if the results show that the partially chilled beer retains more hop flavour without added bitterness, it could become a standard practice for me at home

 

[big78sam]

My concern is that the partial chill where you put it in at 70* would not be fully pasturised, though if you pitch the next day you should be fine.

Ross uses this method without problems. Maybe he can comment further on infection issues

When I'm filling a cube rather than direct pitching, I run an immersion heater for a minute to knock the heat down to 85/90c. Flame out hops (if required) are then added & steeped for 20 mins.
The temperature by then has dropped to approx 70/75c. I then run into the cube in the usual manner. The heat here is more than enough to sanitise & knock over any wild yeast, but cool enough to limit the hot break & make handling easier.
I find this method doesn't require any adjustment (to my taste) from the fully chilled version.

cheers Ross

 

[seamad]

I pool chill. Normally whirlpool 10-15 min, let settle 10-15 then cube. Usually @ mid 80 s. Leave upside down for ten , retighten lid and drop into the pool.
I vary between using my 20 min additions either at power off or into the cube. 10,5,&0 additions always seperate boil ( argon method).

 

[black_labb]

Ross uses this method without problems. Maybe he can comment further on infection issues

I'm more concerned for long term stability. The next morning will be fine. I think I read somewhere that liquid at 71* for a minute is pasturised, but it's really the vessel we are looking at when cubing as the boiled wort will be sanitary already. It's the long term cubing where you want to really be sure of the higher temps. I read someone suggesting that 80* was the lowest they would aim to cube at as it's the small cracks, the tap area and the lid that are succeptible to contaminating the vessel.

As I mentioned above, if you are pitching the next day this is going to be irrelevant as that spec of bacteria that takes 3 weeks to get anywhere in terms of creating a bacteria colony is going to be irrelevant until a while down the track, if that spec of bacteria is there at all.

edit: and sorry, I can be anal about advice in most situations and tend to piss people off with too specific advice

 

[donburke]

I'm more concerned for long term stability. The next morning will be fine. I think I read somewhere that liquid at 71* for a minute is pasturised, but it's really the vessel we are looking at when cubing as the boiled wort will be sanitary already. It's the long term cubing where you want to really be sure of the higher temps. I read someone suggesting that 80* was the lowest they would aim to cube at as it's the small cracks, the tap area and the lid that are succeptible to contaminating the vessel.

As I mentioned above, if you are pitching the next day this is going to be irrelevant as that spec of bacteria that takes 3 weeks to get anywhere in terms of creating a bacteria colony is going to be irrelevant until a while down the track, if that spec of bacteria is there at all.

edit: and sorry, I can be anal about advice in most situations and tend to piss people off with too specific advice

its milk that is pasteurised at those temps

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=...VP-IQ4NbofE3KTg

so someone packing their cube at 80 is probably erring on the safe side to allow for heat loss down the siphon hose and heat the cube will absorb, which is probably realistic

i think i'll do the partial chill to 80deg not 70deg

also, with the earlier references, it looks like isomerisation is considerably slower at 90 deg vs 100 deg, and again even slower at 80 deg, so 80 deg should achieve what its intended to do and also be safe