Kirrin Pale Malt For Sale In Perth

[jayse]

Hi asher,
first i would say good luck in the SA comp but i won't because i won't be a happy looser.

Anyway i'll have a crack at those specs there, firstly 37 is not undermodified although malts for infusion mashing are ussually quoted as being between 38 and 42, what this may mean with the kirin malt is a longer rest or lower temp rest would be in order to use it for craft brewing.
As far as being a lager malt then 37 would actually make it a over modified lager malt with around 33 being undermodified. So from my some what limited understanding it is a reasonble malt for infusion mashing if you do lower the mash temp or maybe mash longer.

You gave PSN, is this the same as TSN total disvolved nitrogen in the wort you produce with this malt? if so .6 is pretty well spot on.

Finally the diastase seems to be about right for this type of malt.

Iam sure wes could give a lot more info here then i could possible dream of giving you.
But like i said before it looks like a malt that is acceptable for infusion mashing but a lower mash temp maybe in order, or god forbid maybe use some sugar. This all makes perfect sense as this i guess is how the mega lager breweries use it.
I have had some blanket statements from some brewers at S.A.B saying they can get a very low FG with a all malt beer made from 100% of this type of malt, but iam not really sure if they are just telling me some bulldust thinking iam just a home brewer what do i care anyway, so with that i don't really trust their blanket statements.

anyway basically it is a little short on the modification compared to the ale malts we use, iam not to sure what JWM pils or IMC pils is as.

now here goes a big plug for 'New Brewing lager beer' if you don't have it Asher go out right now and get it.
It explains a lot of this stuff very well.

Cheers Jayse

 

[Asher]

Thanks for that Jayse.

So not under modified, just not fully modified... ;-)

What you said makes sense. The FG I attained in this case was a few points higher than normally achieved on my system at the rest temp I used... I like a dry beer, so the final product was although full bodied, by no means too high. The Australian lager I made (the first time I used my new brewery, hence the cheap malt) reminds me allot of a Crownie (scary really)...

Asher for now

 

[jayse]

Thanks for that Jayse.

So not under modified, just not fully modified... ;-)

snippped>

reminds me allot of a Crownie (scary really)...

Asher for now

Far far from fully modified really, and just barely infusion mashable properly according to all the info i have.
Maybe more like a malt that can be used in single infusion but just border line on one that may need a protien rest at least.
All this again is going on my limited no expert knowledge.


the scary really part is iam looking into making a beer much the same as your crownie, god help me and don't spread that around either.


Jayse

 

[JasonY]

The last few brews I have done using this I have hit my target OG or exceeded it? Did an APA on saturday and hit the target bang on even after spilling 1L of the first runnings after leaving the tap open on the boiler Using slightly more to account for the lower extract compared with other malts.

Only single infusion mashes .... will see if the flavour suffers using the malt.

Hope it is alright I have 35kgs to get through yet!

 

[wessmith]

Gentlemen, From the specs you have given, that Kirin malt is a CUB spec that is toll malted for CUB's VIC supplier of malt (they dont have a maltings in WA). The analysis appears to be IOB Analytica with the colour being reported in EBC colour units- but some of the results may be conversions from IOB. Anyway, what this means when translated to EBC equivalency is:
Moisture: as stated
Extract: 75.9 or 293 (very low!)
Colour: 4.2 EBC (true)
Index of Mod: 37 = approx Kolbach of 40 degrees. Just adequate for infusion mashing.
PSN: as stated 0.6 (called simply soluble nitrogen in EBC)
Diastase: 90 = ~260 DP EBC

So what have you got? CUB malt! Thats why Asher picked up the "Crownie" flavour - that residual sweetness that pervades all CUB beers. Kirin export most of their production - not to Japan but to Asia and mostly Vietnam I am told. You dont want that malt as it is specced for rice adjunct brewing and will be even more difficult to get a good attenuation.

Wes.

 

[jayse]

Question Wes, if the kolbach index is the soluble nitrogen/total nitrogen ratio, then how does the other index of modification work? ie kolbach is 40 but the other is 37.

Cheers Jayse

 

[Batz]

CUB malt??

OMG !

And I have been so happy with this malt :unsure: :blink: h34r:

 

[GMK]

Batz - just use in the next mash paddle comp and u will be right...

h34r:

Flame Suit On...

 

[JasonY]

Wes, which part of the malt spec are you using to determine that you will have a hard time getting good attenuation and why is this so?

I understand how mashing temp influences the ratio of simple to complex sugars which affect attenuation etc but I don't have a clear understanding on how the malt specs come into this, all malts are not the same so I am sure there is an effect.

Interested to know the answers.

 

[wessmith]

Hi Jayse, without going into some pretty boring lab stuff, the variation is due to the different analysis procedures. Apples aint apples (or is it oils?) when you look at the differences in IOB Analytica and EBC Analytica. For a start the "standard" lab mashes are different volumes, the liquor/grist ratio is different and the crush is different. CUB are the only malt user in Australia using IOB as far as I know and certainly LN uses EBC. We standardised on EBC because thats what our suppliers prefer to use and it is the European standard. That said Thomas Fawcett use IOB and then convert to EBC....

As I have said before - dont you love standards...

Wes.

 

[Batz]

OK Wes

What do you think is the ideal mashing temp. for this malt

And thanks for your advise on this forum

Batz

 

[wessmith]

Batz, CUB use around 30+% "syrup adjunct" - this will be a mix of sugars and malto dextrin, so they will need to balance the body of the beer with the mashed malt. Typically they would mash-in at 68 to 69C then immediatly raise to 74C or so. It is a very different regime compared with home and micro brewing. To keep the fermentables in a range that will give a good dry finish for all malt craft beers, try 64C but not above 66C. Its a tough ask as the malt was not intended to be used in this way.

Wes.

 

[Batz]

Thank Wes

Explanes a lot in the last few brews

Phillipa? Ring true?

 

[jayse]

Thanx wes i think that does explain it, the reason i asked was to me % by weight etc is just that no matter how its measured.
You missed a question from Jasony earlier on, i'll field it on my not so malt guru guy knowledge and say simply it is the kolbach index that gives you what we're talking about here, ie any that is quite low it is my understanding will always not attenuate as much as other malts in single infussion mashing.
now the why? iam not too sure, i just have read that it works this way.
this is why in my first post i posted being that low you'll need to mash very low or use sugar.

I think we have covered quite a bit here for the guys using this malt. good luck with it guys and i myself am still looking forward to giving it a crack.
When i started mashing the only malt i could get was AMC mega lager malt and i was quite happy with the beers i pulled of with that.

Cheers Jayse.

 

[wessmith]

Jayse, your basically right about attenuation. Low Kolback - ie low modification malts become very problematic in lautering, filtration and presentation (hazy) if not subjected to a comprehensive step mash or decoction program.

The CUB malt is intended not to "over attenuate" and thereby maintain a good body balance. It really is pure beverage technology - not traditional brewing.

Wes.

 

[Guest Lurker]

As an aside, I mashed my 100% Kirrin malt barleywine at 65 to 66 degrees, and got 83% attenuation with 1728 and 85% with 1056, (starting at 1.100) so it doesnt necessarily finish high. But it does have a crystal sweetness flavour to the beer (which is what I wanted for the barleywine). I'm going to use the rest of the sack in a single malt lager just to see what the flavour is like. If its like Crown it will go down well with the family at Christmas.

 

[jayse]

Simon being a big beer i would be interested in you doing another test by bringing some of the beer to 80c for a while and getting rid of the alc and then doing another gravity reading as you have lots of alc in that beer so the attenuation is not actually correct.
ie real attenuation compared to apparant attenuation.

anyway all that said it sounds like your barley wine come up very well

Jayse

 

[Guest Lurker]

True, but having slaved over that beer to get all the alcohol in there, not so keen to boil it off again! Anyway, its bottled, tried to get it into bottles while there were still one or two active yeasties left. Will find out in a few months if that was the right thing to do or not.

 

[JasonY]

Jayse, your basically right about attenuation. Low Kolback - ie low modification malts become very problematic in lautering, filtration and presentation (hazy) if not subjected to a comprehensive step mash or decoction program.

The CUB malt is intended not to "over attenuate" and thereby maintain a good body balance. It really is pure beverage technology - not traditional brewing.

Wes.

Sorry to carry on just trying to understand this more (can you recommend a good book ).

When I look at maltcraft's site I see that a lot of the base malts hae Kolbach indexes of about 41 (TF MO pale is 38-42) ... so are results extremely sensitive to this? 40 seems pretty close to 41?

I can reason in my head that a low modification can lead too lautering problems and increased haze but I still can see where the attenuation effect comes in? Does the malt have an inherent enzyme imbalance or something funky which prevents the production of less dextrinous wort?

I am curious now ... gooogle is not proving to be much help to me on this.

 

[wessmith]

JasonY, there are many facets of malting and for that matter roasting that are simply not covered by a spec. If you REALLY want to get into the theory of brewing (including malting) try "Technology Brewing and Malting" International edition by Kunze but be prepared for a $200 or so bill. You can buy online from www.vlb-berlin.org. Other than Noonans NBLB, I dont recall seeing any HB book cover similar territory.

The final outcome of any malt can be manipulated during steeping, germination and even kilning. When barley germinates it respires CO2 and generates heat. Both these factors are manipulated in day to day malting to arrive at the required outcome. With CUB spec malt for instance, the customer has a specific series of additional fermentation tests that simulate a production environment to establish the FG of the wort. It cant be too low as this would result in a very dry beer. Conversely many Japanese customers WANT a very dry finish and you will see in many malting labs, some strange looking 1.5m or so high glass tubes that simulate a fermentation in that breweries fermenting vessels. The object is to establish the FG of the malt that must be UNDER a maximum. Two specific lab tests with exactly opposite outcomes. Barley strains also have a part to play here as well - good old Schooner malt can be produced with a lower than normal DP and good body characteristics. This malt is sometimes blended (after malting) with other varieties to ensure the final wort does not over-attenuate.

Crystal malts are another area where the spec does not reflect the performance of the product. The crystal can have "body and colour" or "flavour and fermentatbility" - it just depends on the gel or stewing temps used in the gelatinisation phase.

Believe me, malting is a much more complex process than brewing and that is one reason you find so little about it in a Google search - you really have to search for specifics. And there is still not a lot out there.

Wes.