Kegmenter transfer to keg: excessive foaming in transfer line

[mtb]

I have a few of these 26L Kegmenters from iBrew (no affiliation but for $180 a pop I'm seriously considering selling my cornies and using these for fermenting as well as dispensing, eliminating the need for keg transfer at all.. but I digress). Currently I ferment in the Kegmenter with a spunding valve set to 10psi @ 18C, so a relatively low carb level, and then transfer to a purged corny keg. When I do a keg transfer using 1m beer line with beer disconnects at both ends, I get excessive foaming in the line - as soon as the beer exits the Kegmenter - and results in excessive foaming in the destination keg.

Items of note;
- Temp of all equipment is relatively equal, ie room temp
- Diameter of beer line is 6mm
- I de-pressurise the Kegmenter and gas it back up to 30kPA, my logic there being that I want to minimise splashing in the destination keg
- I tried upping the pressure in the Kegmenter but this didn't reduce the foaming (not sure why it would but I tried it anyway).

What am I missing? If somebody wants to tell me to simply sell my cornies and buy more Kegmenters, I'll be happy with that as a solution too. SWMBO can't argue with the collective advice of AHB* h34r:

*she most certainly will but to no avail

 

[pcqypcqy]

If I get foaming in the line when transferring, it's usually a sign that something is clogged somewhere in the kegmenter.

I've had the following issues on various transfers, even after snipping 20mm off the bottom of the tube.

• loose dry hop clogging dip tub / poppets
• bagged dry hop (in nylon stocking) getting sucked halfway up dip tube
• deeper than anticipated yeast cake clogging bottom of dip tube

So I'd be looking for culprits on the supply side and see if anything shows up.

 

[Maheel]

have you crashed chill or are you transferring at 18C ?

i transfer at less than 3 and have not had issues....

my kegmenter is a 50lkeg and line is maybe 10mm OD coupler to a ball lock

 

[2cranky]

I gravity feed from bottom of FV to keg through beer out.

But if you are doing a pressurized setup would you do it the same way they transfer to minikegs etc.
pressure both the same,
connect beer out to beer out & gas in to gas in,
put empty keg low and give the release valve a short lift to start the flow.

then it should transfer under gravity and no foam.

 

[blotto]

Is your target keg also at pressure? I think you need both at the same pressure and slowly bleed off the pressure in the target keg.

 

[mtb]

All very fair points.. I think I'd best do some tinkering, particularly with pressurising the destination keg. Hadn't thought of that.

 

[2cranky]

There's a post here some where on filling mini kegs

The gas connection between the two lets the gas from the target keg move into the origin keg as it fills.
So the whole lot transfers in a closed system.
The amount of height between the two kegs will determine the speed of the flow.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

re- blotto's question. Do have spunding valve on the receiving keg? I set that to release at say~ 6-7 psi ( ~43 KPA) and reg on the co2 bottle can be up to 15 psi. The spunding valve can vary a bit and need adjusting for a while at first then finds and equilibrium.
Transfer cold or warm but cold is better. It shows the condensation line of the beer. Warm transfer I place keg on bathroom scales as a beer weight reference.

ah, didn't see last coincided posts I think we found the problem. Pressure ferment finished carbonated beer needs pressure transfers.

 

[mtb]

I think part of my problem is transferring warm beer, I'd best cold crash it before transferring. Will be doing so this weekend

 

[Danscraftbeer]

http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/89407-kegmenter-are-they-good-to-use/page-2

 

[Danscraftbeer]

I think part of my problem is transferring warm beer, I'd best cold crash it before transferring. Will be doing so this weekend

Actually I'm now opting to transfer warm, at ferment temps now because it takes a shitload of electricity to chill my 50lt kegmenter in the temp control fridge I have. I often store the kegs at room temps for longer time conditioning anyhow. Then chill them in the more power efficient beer fridge/kegerator and good to drink on tap.

This is a better option as in I can 2 different brews at different stages because I can fit a slim 23lt corny (kegmenter) in the temp controlled fridge as well. So now my guzzling temp controlled fridge is only minimally powered for stable Ale temps. No cold crashing in the guzzler fridge it can take a week to properly cold crash a 50lt kegmenter. Maybe $50 bucks worth of electricity on top your Ingredients bill etc.

 

[2cranky]

I think part of my problem is transferring warm beer, I'd best cold crash it before transferring. Will be doing so this weekend

Yeah I chill to 5 and then gel and chill to 2. then I transfer. Last couple of batches I've left the gel out so just chill to 2. Just about to go keg my session IPA.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Re- the transfer at all question is yes IMO. Get it off the lees/yeast cake etc.
I know people do ferment, naturally carbonate, chill and serve it all in the one vessel. That's what the pricey little Beer machines do but as for longer storage and conditioning goes then transferring off the yeast cake/Lees is the better, more professional way to go.

 

[Grott]

Your on the right track mtb, great as fermenter - dispenser all in one. I've invested too much in kegs to change and my current set up suits. Any party kegs if you sell? You know the 10 litre ones that shrink to 9.5. Ha ha

 

[Grott]

Ps :- with night time temps in Canberra these days you could crash outside overnight?!

 

[mtb]

Your on the right track mtb, great as fermenter - dispenser all in one. I've invested too much in kegs to change and my current set up suits. Any party kegs if you sell? You know the 10 litre ones that shrink to 9.5. Ha ha

If you'd like a refund on that keg.. let me know and I'll be happy to facilitate
I'll have a few party kegs, definitely. Picked up a brand new 10L stainless keg for $60 off Gumtree recently so I'd say my keg needs are covered

 

[Grott]

No it's a top keg thanks. Bargain new one for $60, you must have seen it as soon as advertised.

 

[mtb]

Good ol' Gumtree saved searches. It retails for ~$160 so definitely happy with it.

 

[Maheel]

Maybe $50 bucks worth of electricity on top your Ingredients bill etc.

Ive got one of those plug in power meter things at work, next ferment i will run it the full length and test that...

yeah pressure the receiving keg then put the spunding onto it at "closed / high pressure".
go easy or you shoot gas into the kegementer
set everything up and open the spund to let beer "into" the keg


I have popped the PRV open on the rec-keg to speed up once running and not noticed foam

 

[Danscraftbeer]

I have popped the PRV open on the rec-keg to speed up once running and not noticed foam

Yeah me too. Its a user judgment thing. Near filled I take off the spunding valve so if there is a bit of foam (head) on top of the transferred beer (as there should be) then it wont spit through the spunding valve. Just let it fill pressured until it stops. Then little releases of the PRV to get the last maximum fill.

 

[fdsaasdf]

I don't have a spunding valve and am hesitant to get one from KK given the imprecision and unreliability noted on this forum.

When I transfer into kegs from my FV I start filling and then sit a QD with no tube on the gas post to vent pressure.

 

[goatchop41]

All very fair points.. I think I'd best do some tinkering, particularly with pressurising the destination keg. Hadn't thought of that.

This is almost certainly your issue mate, regardless of temperature. If the receiving keg isn't pressurised, then all of the CO2 will be wanting to come out of solution as it moves from the higher pressure kegmenter to the keg with no pressure, just like when you're pouring a beer into a glass. That's the cause of the foaming.

As others have said, pressurise the receiving keg to about the same pressure, connect gas post to gas post and beer to beer, then a quick pull on the PRV of the receiving keg to start. Use some scales (or the condensation line on the sides of the receiving keg, if the beer is cold) to judge when it is full.

 

[pcqypcqy]

This is almost certainly your issue mate, regardless of temperature. If the receiving keg isn't pressurised, then all of the CO2 will be wanting to come out of solution as it moves from the higher pressure kegmenter to the keg with no pressure, just like when you're pouring a beer into a glass. That's the cause of the foaming.

As others have said, pressurise the receiving keg to about the same pressure, connect gas post to gas post and beer to beer, then a quick pull on the PRV of the receiving keg to start. Use some scales (or the condensation line on the sides of the receiving keg, if the beer is cold) to judge when it is full.

I don't think this is 100% true.

I agree that SOME of the CO2 will want to come out of solution, but I've done a few pressure transfers without using the spunding valve on the receiving keg and have not had issues. I'm sure I'm losing some of my carbonation but not enough to be significant (i.e. it was still quite drinkable off the receiving keg immediately after the transfer).

I've never noticed this causing foaming in the line either. Maybe in the receiving keg initially, but should settle down as the height of beer over the bottom of the dip tube provides some back pressure.

Not saying that pressurising the receiving keg is wrong, and generally I do it because I've purged it with CO2 anyway, but I'm just suggesting that this isn't the main cause of the OP's problem.

 

[mtb]

For comparison, my receiving keg had a good 10cm of head from foaming which I had to wait to settle before continuing to fill. I had a further thought about this; the diameter of the beer line could be more than the diameter of the beer out post in my Kegmenter. Could this cause the problem?

 

[Coldspace]

If your transferring at room temp. Eg 20 degrees, you will want the receiving keg at least 22-24 psi or more as the supply keg will be at 24-28 psi depending on carb level. Any less in the receiving keg will be causing foaming in the lines, as well as a very frothy beer in the receiving keg due to co2 escaping out at low pressure due to temp etc.

I pressure transfer cold normally , supply keg carbonated and sitting at 12-14 psi. Receiving keg purged and sitting at same psi click on, click spunding on and dial back 3-4 psi and let goodness flow, while watching condensation line creep up. Works great with my 50 ltr kegmenters.

For camping trips, I cart 19 ltr cornies at room temp and they sit at approx 24-28 psi depending on temps, 18 -30 degrees.
I pressure transfer from these warm into my 5 ltr minis that were pressure upto same pressure as warm kegs but use the loop and grav system as I just want 4-5 ltrs into a mini for beers that night . Co2 back into main warm keg at 28 psi or whatever, mini filled and then chilled in camp waeco. Works a treat, only need refrigeration for 1 mini keg whilst still carting plenty of stock away at room temp.
As long as the orings and disconnects are good, you will get no foaming at the right pressure for the right temp.

As others have stated above, if using a spunding valve , adjust slowly , and when say 80-90%full, un click it and just little pulls of the pressure relief valve and wait a few secs in between to let the keg fill remainder up.
Room temp transfers will need to be higher pressure.

I recommend , from plenty of these.
At chilled temps, 12-14 psi main keg, receiving the same and when all connected adjust spunding back 3-4 psi max or if doing closed loop gravity way then keep same pressure and purged keg.

At room temps, 24-28 psi depending on carb level and temp of beer, receiving keg same pressure and 3 psi less max on spunding valve method or closed loop same pressure.

Warm pressure transfers work great if done correctly and the beers are great still and same carb level as the host keg, perfect for trips away. With no waste of co2 if using the closed loop system and the beauty is when the mini runs out, leave residual 12 psi inside it, don't open, repressure to same as supply keg, click on lines and fill with warm necter the next day, then back into ice of esky for night fun. No waste or mess.

Cold transfers works great at home as my kegmenters are 50 ltr so filling my cornies and minis are done cold then into my keezer or off to BBQ or whatever..

Just be mindfull, if doing transfers at room temps, then make sure you got good disconnects, orings, lubed connections and well crimped transfer lines gas and liquid due to the higher pressure involved.
Cheers

 

[mtb]

Thanks for the deets Coldspace. I do de-pressurise the supply keg and re-pressurise to ~5PSI before transferring, but still that's a difference compared to the receiving keg so still a definitely possible factor. Should just pull my finger out and do cold transfers, sounds generally less of a hassle

 

[Coldspace]

Warm transfers work if you keep the pressure up, otherwise your beer drops the gas out fast causing foam.

Similar to opening a hot can of beer and pouring it into a glass, goes frothy and blows foam every where.

Same inside your kegs, due to opening the can a pressure drop occurs and foam results.

 

[Chridech]

All very fair points.. I think I'd best do some tinkering, particularly with pressurising the destination keg. Hadn't thought of that.

Put your spunding valve on the receiving keg. Pressure differential between the two vessels of 5PSI works well for me. Adjust the spunding valve so that you get a slow hiss, with about 5PSI differential. Eg. Kegmenter at 10 PSI and receiving keg at 5PSI. Make sure the beer is chilled. With this you will transfer in about 5 minutes with minimal foaming. Fill to the weld line on the Corny, follow the condensation level. There may be some sanitiser foam through the spunding valve at the end and this is a pretty good time to stop. No oxygen exposure if you displace sanitiser with C02 in the receiving keg. Happy Hoppy beers!

Edit: Ah, should have read the whole thread, superfluous.

 

[pcqypcqy]

For comparison, my receiving keg had a good 10cm of head from foaming which I had to wait to settle before continuing to fill. I had a further thought about this; the diameter of the beer line could be more than the diameter of the beer out post in my Kegmenter. Could this cause the problem?

This is a possibility. If there is insufficient back pressure on the line, putting it into a large diamater line is almost the same as dumping it in a glass.

Thanks for the deets Coldspace. I do de-pressurise the supply keg and re-pressurise to ~5PSI before transferring, but still that's a difference compared to the receiving keg so still a definitely possible factor. Should just pull my finger out and do cold transfers, sounds generally less of a hassle

I would recommend the cold transfers which will also assist as per others comments. I usually aim for about a 5psi difference between the supply and receiving keg. Any less and it takes forever to transfer on my 6mm lines.

 

[mtb]

Update - still getting a foaming issue during transfer, despite having roughly equal (differential of no more than 2PSI) pressure between source and destination keg. I tested in reverse though - corny to kegmenter - and no bubbles were seen in the line, at all. I didn't even pay attention to equilibrating pressure between the two first.

This seems to pay further likelihood to the culprit being the diameter of the diptube in the kegmenter.


ed: I tried flipping the transfer line so the disconnects were on opposite kegs, no change. Thought I'd best rule that out now before someone points it out