Kegmenter transfer to keg: excessive foaming in transfer line

[fdsaasdf]

I don't have a spunding valve and am hesitant to get one from KK given the imprecision and unreliability noted on this forum.

When I transfer into kegs from my FV I start filling and then sit a QD with no tube on the gas post to vent pressure.

 

[goatchop41]

All very fair points.. I think I'd best do some tinkering, particularly with pressurising the destination keg. Hadn't thought of that.

This is almost certainly your issue mate, regardless of temperature. If the receiving keg isn't pressurised, then all of the CO2 will be wanting to come out of solution as it moves from the higher pressure kegmenter to the keg with no pressure, just like when you're pouring a beer into a glass. That's the cause of the foaming.

As others have said, pressurise the receiving keg to about the same pressure, connect gas post to gas post and beer to beer, then a quick pull on the PRV of the receiving keg to start. Use some scales (or the condensation line on the sides of the receiving keg, if the beer is cold) to judge when it is full.

 

[pcqypcqy]

This is almost certainly your issue mate, regardless of temperature. If the receiving keg isn't pressurised, then all of the CO2 will be wanting to come out of solution as it moves from the higher pressure kegmenter to the keg with no pressure, just like when you're pouring a beer into a glass. That's the cause of the foaming.

As others have said, pressurise the receiving keg to about the same pressure, connect gas post to gas post and beer to beer, then a quick pull on the PRV of the receiving keg to start. Use some scales (or the condensation line on the sides of the receiving keg, if the beer is cold) to judge when it is full.

I don't think this is 100% true.

I agree that SOME of the CO2 will want to come out of solution, but I've done a few pressure transfers without using the spunding valve on the receiving keg and have not had issues. I'm sure I'm losing some of my carbonation but not enough to be significant (i.e. it was still quite drinkable off the receiving keg immediately after the transfer).

I've never noticed this causing foaming in the line either. Maybe in the receiving keg initially, but should settle down as the height of beer over the bottom of the dip tube provides some back pressure.

Not saying that pressurising the receiving keg is wrong, and generally I do it because I've purged it with CO2 anyway, but I'm just suggesting that this isn't the main cause of the OP's problem.

 

[mtb]

For comparison, my receiving keg had a good 10cm of head from foaming which I had to wait to settle before continuing to fill. I had a further thought about this; the diameter of the beer line could be more than the diameter of the beer out post in my Kegmenter. Could this cause the problem?

 

[Coldspace]

If your transferring at room temp. Eg 20 degrees, you will want the receiving keg at least 22-24 psi or more as the supply keg will be at 24-28 psi depending on carb level. Any less in the receiving keg will be causing foaming in the lines, as well as a very frothy beer in the receiving keg due to co2 escaping out at low pressure due to temp etc.

I pressure transfer cold normally , supply keg carbonated and sitting at 12-14 psi. Receiving keg purged and sitting at same psi click on, click spunding on and dial back 3-4 psi and let goodness flow, while watching condensation line creep up. Works great with my 50 ltr kegmenters.

For camping trips, I cart 19 ltr cornies at room temp and they sit at approx 24-28 psi depending on temps, 18 -30 degrees.
I pressure transfer from these warm into my 5 ltr minis that were pressure upto same pressure as warm kegs but use the loop and grav system as I just want 4-5 ltrs into a mini for beers that night . Co2 back into main warm keg at 28 psi or whatever, mini filled and then chilled in camp waeco. Works a treat, only need refrigeration for 1 mini keg whilst still carting plenty of stock away at room temp.
As long as the orings and disconnects are good, you will get no foaming at the right pressure for the right temp.

As others have stated above, if using a spunding valve , adjust slowly , and when say 80-90%full, un click it and just little pulls of the pressure relief valve and wait a few secs in between to let the keg fill remainder up.
Room temp transfers will need to be higher pressure.

I recommend , from plenty of these.
At chilled temps, 12-14 psi main keg, receiving the same and when all connected adjust spunding back 3-4 psi max or if doing closed loop gravity way then keep same pressure and purged keg.

At room temps, 24-28 psi depending on carb level and temp of beer, receiving keg same pressure and 3 psi less max on spunding valve method or closed loop same pressure.

Warm pressure transfers work great if done correctly and the beers are great still and same carb level as the host keg, perfect for trips away. With no waste of co2 if using the closed loop system and the beauty is when the mini runs out, leave residual 12 psi inside it, don't open, repressure to same as supply keg, click on lines and fill with warm necter the next day, then back into ice of esky for night fun. No waste or mess.

Cold transfers works great at home as my kegmenters are 50 ltr so filling my cornies and minis are done cold then into my keezer or off to BBQ or whatever..

Just be mindfull, if doing transfers at room temps, then make sure you got good disconnects, orings, lubed connections and well crimped transfer lines gas and liquid due to the higher pressure involved.
Cheers

 

[mtb]

Thanks for the deets Coldspace. I do de-pressurise the supply keg and re-pressurise to ~5PSI before transferring, but still that's a difference compared to the receiving keg so still a definitely possible factor. Should just pull my finger out and do cold transfers, sounds generally less of a hassle

 

[Coldspace]

Warm transfers work if you keep the pressure up, otherwise your beer drops the gas out fast causing foam.

Similar to opening a hot can of beer and pouring it into a glass, goes frothy and blows foam every where.

Same inside your kegs, due to opening the can a pressure drop occurs and foam results.

 

[Chridech]

All very fair points.. I think I'd best do some tinkering, particularly with pressurising the destination keg. Hadn't thought of that.

Put your spunding valve on the receiving keg. Pressure differential between the two vessels of 5PSI works well for me. Adjust the spunding valve so that you get a slow hiss, with about 5PSI differential. Eg. Kegmenter at 10 PSI and receiving keg at 5PSI. Make sure the beer is chilled. With this you will transfer in about 5 minutes with minimal foaming. Fill to the weld line on the Corny, follow the condensation level. There may be some sanitiser foam through the spunding valve at the end and this is a pretty good time to stop. No oxygen exposure if you displace sanitiser with C02 in the receiving keg. Happy Hoppy beers!

Edit: Ah, should have read the whole thread, superfluous.

 

[pcqypcqy]

For comparison, my receiving keg had a good 10cm of head from foaming which I had to wait to settle before continuing to fill. I had a further thought about this; the diameter of the beer line could be more than the diameter of the beer out post in my Kegmenter. Could this cause the problem?

This is a possibility. If there is insufficient back pressure on the line, putting it into a large diamater line is almost the same as dumping it in a glass.

Thanks for the deets Coldspace. I do de-pressurise the supply keg and re-pressurise to ~5PSI before transferring, but still that's a difference compared to the receiving keg so still a definitely possible factor. Should just pull my finger out and do cold transfers, sounds generally less of a hassle

I would recommend the cold transfers which will also assist as per others comments. I usually aim for about a 5psi difference between the supply and receiving keg. Any less and it takes forever to transfer on my 6mm lines.

 

[mtb]

Update - still getting a foaming issue during transfer, despite having roughly equal (differential of no more than 2PSI) pressure between source and destination keg. I tested in reverse though - corny to kegmenter - and no bubbles were seen in the line, at all. I didn't even pay attention to equilibrating pressure between the two first.

This seems to pay further likelihood to the culprit being the diameter of the diptube in the kegmenter.


ed: I tried flipping the transfer line so the disconnects were on opposite kegs, no change. Thought I'd best rule that out now before someone points it out

 

[mtb]

In case anyone is interested - I've partially found the culprit here. My latest batches were not pressure-fermented, in order to rule that out as a possibility, and still I had plenty of bubbles in the transfer line (on visual inspection there was more bubble than beer). A gurgling sound comes from the beer out post when transferring. All batches from these kegmenters have shown symptoms of significant oxidisation. The reason appears to be that those aren't CO2 bubbles in the line - they're air bubbles. Tried swapping out the post with one of my minikeg posts, no change, changed beer disconnect, no change, swapped a lid from my working kegmenter (one of the three doesn't bubble thru the line) and there we have it - no bubbling in the line.

Machining issue maybe? The leak only presents itself when the beer out post is open, because the vessel holds pressure just fine. I've emailed iBrew to sort something out, they've given excellent customer service in the past, so I'm not too concerned - but if there's an easy fix, I'll do that instead.

edit: changed "O2 bubbles" to "air bubbles", I know how you guys get sometimes

 

[Droopy Brew]

Do you use John Guest fittings on the disconnects? Possible source of air intrusion. If the lines aren't cut square they dont tend to seal too well.

 

[mtb]

I used a variety of disconnects, but also, the same disconnect was used on the working lid/beer post as was used on a non-working lid/beer post. The issue looks to be isolated to the thread on the beer post.

 

[mtb]

Turns out it was a missing seal beneath the lip of the diptube.. I thought it was one solid piece (diptube and beer out thread) but nope, the diptube is removable. Without a seal under it, CO2 seems to have gotten in from within the keg. At least it's not air I guess.

Chucked in a seal and bob's your uncle, no more bubbles in the line. Photo attached in case someone has the same or similar issue.. but then again, seals are a no-brainer to check, so maybe this is just an MTB-only issue

 

[blotto]

Turns out it was a missing seal beneath the lip of the diptube.. I thought it was one solid piece (diptube and beer out thread) but nope, the diptube is removable. Without a seal under it, CO2 seems to have gotten in from within the keg. At least it's not air I guess.

Yeah that's great it wasn't air! That was my first thought, glad you found the problem.

 

[Coldspace]

Good info