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KegLand Questions and Answers

Discussion in 'Gear and Equipment' started by KegLand-com-au, 26/4/18.

 

  1. theSeekerr

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    Posted 29/5/18
    Do the kegmenters have enough clearance to stack if you've got a blow-off tube routed out through the handle of the lower one? I might be interested if I can get two in my fridge...
     
  2. Jack of all biers

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    Posted 29/5/18
    What is the tested accuracy variance of Kegland pH meters? I can't find an accuracy rating in the manual or listed on your site. It is stated that the resolution is 0.01, which makes it an accurate meter, however resolution is not the same as accuracy. Most pH meters in that price bracket are 0.1 accuracy whether they have 0.01 resolution or 0.1 resolution.

    Given there is much inference in the product description and video that Kegland have designed and manufactured the pH meter and that Kegland expect that brewers will use it to measure 'hot wort from the mash tun' I find it odd that the operating temperature range only goes to 50C. This means that any reading at temperatures above this can't be relied on at all and damage likely to occur to the meter. So why are statements made, implying that it is normal for brewers to take pH measurement at mash temps, when anything above 50C will potentially damage the unit. For example "Home brewing puts a lot of stress on the electrodes. Especially if you are testing hot wort directly from your mash tun." and "Lets face it, you are not going to wait for your wort sample to cool down to 20C are you." Conversely, neither the video, manual nor product description has one statement that recommends that the customer does wait for it to cool down.

    On the video is this "a lot of guys brewing, obviously are going to be measuring hot wort in particular, or they don't have the patience to let it cool down to room temperature and if you don't have ATC you are gonna get a poor accuracy reading and that's gonna be a bit of a problem for you." If Kegland know this then why have 50C max. If it is too expensive to make a unit that goes as high as 70C, then why not strongly recommend for customers not to go above 50C. As far as ATC and poor accuracy readings, that is a bit of lack of understanding given the meter's ATC only goes to 50C as well. ATC doesn't take into account the change in the pH of the wort solution itself at any given temperature (different to 25C). Link for reference.

    Why isn't Kegland encouraging brewers to test mash/wort samples at as close to room temperature (25C) as possible. This would give them better accuracy for their purposes (of comparing pH values with recommended mash pH values that are all given for room temperature)? Such advise from the maker/seller would also increase the life span of the electrode for the customer.

    Quotes regarding ATC.

    AJ deLange; "Even if your meter is equipped with properly functioning ATC you need to allow for actual mash temperature if it is more than a few degrees above room temperature. All pH measurements in brewing are referred to room temperature."

    Kai Troster; "many brewers think that ATC means that you can test the mash pH at any temp within the pH meter’s temperature range. While this is true you still need to know the temperature dependent pH shift in order to correct the pH temp to the standard temperature at which the optimal pH targets were published. Briggs and DeClerck cite a pH shift of -0.35 between a room temps and a mash temp sample while my own experiments showed only -0.18. There doesn’t seem to be much data about this shift out there and the majority of the pH values that are given for brewing are room temp pH measurements. Just because a meter has ATC it is not more accurate, especially if the sample's temperature to pH function is unknown."
     
  3. cwusson

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    Posted 29/5/18
    When do you expect to get the Fermentasaurus back in stock, and what will the price be? Specifically the 27L.
     
    Last edited: 30/5/18
  4. KegLand-com-au

    www.KegLand.com.au - A Land of Stainless Steel AHB Sponsor

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    Posted 30/5/18
    The 27L and 50L models should be available by the end of this year. We will do a promo video so you guys can see all the new upgrades soon.
     
    cwusson likes this.
  5. KegLand-com-au

    www.KegLand.com.au - A Land of Stainless Steel AHB Sponsor

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    Posted 30/5/18
    We have got some samples of the concealed element that we can sell to you at a signficant discount if you like. We tried hard to get this to work but it simply was not possible. We really wanted to make sure the 65L model has a minimum of 3300 watts firstly to get a good boil but also because the heat up time was just too long if we made the wattage less than this.

    With this relatively high power it was difficult to get the watt density down to a low enough wattage that we could avoid scortching. We tried several different element manufacturers but it continued to be an issue. The conceasled elements are considerably cheaper and trust me, if we could have made this work well we would have done this.

    As a result we have gone with exposed elements which have certain pros and cons. The watt density is extremly low. So low in fact that you can even if you accidentally boil the unit dry it will not kill the elements. (this is an advantage in itself).

    Certainly i would agree with you that the concealed elements are neat and tidy and make cleaning easy. But at the same time when your watt density is low enough you dont get caramalised sugars sticking to the elements either so this also makes the brewery clean up easily.

    There is probably a good reason why Speidels Braumeister has been designed in the same way.

    Lastly with conceased elements they are impossible to replace. So if you burn out an element in the Robobrew 35L or Grainfather you pretty much have to replace the whole boiler secion. With the Robobrew 65L if you burne out an element we will have replacement elements that you can purchase separately.
     
    krz likes this.
  6. KegLand-com-au

    www.KegLand.com.au - A Land of Stainless Steel AHB Sponsor

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    Posted 30/5/18
    Also if you want to sign up for notificatoins when the Robobrew 65L comes into stock you can click here:

    https://www.kegland.com.au/robobrew-65l-gen-3.html

    Then just click on the red text which says "sign up to get notified when this product is back in stock"
     
  7. malt and barley blues

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    Posted 30/5/18
    Looking on the manufacturers website it is 0.1 accuracy, I like the fact there is a spare electrode in the kit.
     
  8. KegLand-com-au

    www.KegLand.com.au - A Land of Stainless Steel AHB Sponsor

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    Posted 30/5/18
    Hey fellas. Just wanted to let you know about the comp we have running at the moment.

    Last time we ran a comp we gave away a free reflux still/pot still and we only got about 50 entries so you had about 1 in 50 chance of winning. This time we are giving away a free Robobrew with this Facebook comp.

    Get in now and WIN

    All you have to do is simply:
    1. Like the KegLand Page
    2. Tag three friends on this post
    3. WIN

    [​IMG]


     
    Schikitar, Mat and Milk-lizard84 like this.
  9. Jack of all biers

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    Posted 31/5/18
    I was waiting for Kegland to answer, but given they haven't. I don't know the manufacturer, do you have a link?

    I tried Kelilong Electron Co in China based solely on the product code, but they don't have it listed.

    Kegland, if @malt and barley blues is correct, then you need to tell the US retailers that they are incorrect in posting your pH meter as having an accuracy of 0.01. I have found three so far that state this in the product description on their sites. If it does indeed have an accuracy of +/-0.01, then I think this would be a good advertising point for you to sell the product.
     
  10. malt and barley blues

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    Posted 31/5/18
  11. Abird89

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    Posted 31/5/18
    Is the plan for the 65L still to use a 15amp circuit?
     
  12. awfulknauful

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    Posted 31/5/18
    If it is a 3.5Kw then it will need a 15 amp circuit.
     
    Abird89 likes this.
  13. Jack of all biers

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    Posted 31/5/18
    Your link goes to Google images with multiple images of one brand "Lichen". Whilst the stats are similar, it doesn't make it the same. IF it was one of the 3 models you have linked to, then it would have to be one with an accuracy of +/-0.02 pH and 1C temp. They are the only ones with a resolution of 0.01, however both have a temp resolution of 0.1C, but the Kegland pH meter has a temp resolution of 1C. So not the same.
    HTB1pGUMh.FWMKJjSZFvq6yenFXaE.jpg Screenshot_2018-05-31_12-37-38.png

    There are many pH meters out there that look very similar and manufacturers can re-jig models with different components, so even IF this manufacturer made the Kegland model, it doesn't mean it is one of the models that manufacturer sells on it's own. Don't forget Kee has trademarked the name of the Kegland pH meter, so it is likely made to specification.

    I think it best to wait for Kegland to respond.
     
    Last edited: 31/5/18
    KegLand-com-au likes this.
  14. KegLand-com-au

    www.KegLand.com.au - A Land of Stainless Steel AHB Sponsor

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    Posted 31/5/18

    Cooling of wort before testing:
    Cooling of the wort before testing is the ideal scenario. All digital pH meters irrespective if you purchase ours or a $300 one from another supplier will have reduced probe life if you put the probe into hot wort. With that said it will not destroy the probe instantly if it gets immersed in hot wort. You will be able to do this many times until you complete destroy the probe. It just comes down to a trade off between how long you want for wort to cool down and how long you want your probe to last. I would imagine even if you immersed the probe in hot wort once a week in hot wort for 60 seconds you would still get the probe last a couple years and it still give you usable readings.

    Accuracy:
    Thanks for this question. This question gives us the opportunity to explain a few points about accuracy in general. With PH meter they are largely only as accurate as you calibrate and how well you keep your probe. This is not just with our pH meter but all pH meters.
    Its important to remember that the accuracy of the pH meter will be determined by a number of factors including:
    1. The accuracy of the calibration solution
    2. The temperature of the solution
    3. The pressure in the pH glass bulb
    4. a long list of other factors that are too numerous to state...

    With regards to 1 the buffer solution that we supply with the kit is +/- 0.05ph. So this is important to take into account. You can get more expensive buffer solutions that have higher accuracy but to be honest these are more than adequate for any home brew or commercial brewery opperation. With that said its important to understand this so I have to point it out. With regards to 2 the temperature of the solution will be a factor. Both the temperature of the buffer solution when calibrating but also the temperature of the solution that you are measuring. As the temperater gets further away from ambient you will notice that the accuraccy also will varly slightly more. The ATC will calculate out some of this error but the ideal scenario is that the wort temp is ambient temp if you want extremly accurate results. With regarsd to 3 the pressure in the glass bulb will vary with the depth and position that the pH meter is placed into the container. As these glass bulbs measure hydrogen-ion activity in water-based solutions, if we immerse the pH sensor into a soluition the hydrogen-ion activity is not even, so you will get different results even with the same sample just by moving the probe.

    Previously we were reluctant to state the accuracy of the pH meter as it's something that is very difficult to determine. With that said it seems that it's a question that we are getting more frequently so we have now put this into our specification sheet and as you can see from this PDF the accuracy has been amended into this sheet as pH 0.05.
    https://www.kegland.com.au/media/pdf/Ph Meter Instructions 2.pdf
    In some respects the stated "accuracy" on a specifcation sheet can be misleading. Accuracy at room temperature, accuracy and the edges of the recommended temperature range, or accuracy with just water. The accuracy of a sample of water compared with beer wort will be different. So you kinda have to take the accuracy reading with a grain of salt too. What we can say is we use a high quality probe and we have a high level of resolution to read that probe. If we start the accuracy as 0.05 or 0.01 or 0.1 to be honest this number on it's own is a bit meaningless.

    Now with all that said, the probes that we use are very high quality probes. We have put a very good quality probe on here and the same probe is used on pH meters that sell for 4 or 5 times the price. The accuracy of these pH meters is signficiantly better than what any brewer will need. But most of all with any scientific instrument it will only be as good as you look after it.

    I challenge anyone to find a better quality pH meter any anywhere near this price, distributed and supported by a local Australian company and that supplies spare parts such as replacement probes.
     
    Last edited: 31/5/18
  15. KegLand-com-au

    www.KegLand.com.au - A Land of Stainless Steel AHB Sponsor

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    Posted 31/5/18
    That is correct.
    That is correct. We have used some components from one supplier such as the case but we source other components from other suppliers such as the probes. In doing so we have taken what we feel the be the best quality and value components to make this particular pH meter probably the best value pH meter available.
     
  16. KegLand-com-au

    www.KegLand.com.au - A Land of Stainless Steel AHB Sponsor

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    Posted 31/5/18
    Yes absolutely. The 65L unit will have to be run on a 15amp socket.

    I am sure we will get some customers "hack" up these units with two cables and run the two cables to 2x10amp sockets. This technically could be possible to do and using an additional relay and wiring you would be able to separate one of the elements onto a different circuit in your house. But really the best optoin is just to upgrade to a 15amp socket.

    Most modern houses will have the wiring suitable for 15amps. So you might find that you just need to change the plug on the wall rather than re-wire your house.
     
  17. malt and barley blues

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    Posted 31/5/18
    That certainly is a dedication to duty, getting the case from one supplier and the innards from other suppliers, and then making sure they all fit. I have the Lichen one and have had good support, the electrode lasted about 15 months before I got a replacement.
     
  18. theSeekerr

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    Posted 31/5/18
    @KegLand-com-au ?

    Best ask an electrician, because you probably don't know how to correctly de-rate the current capacity of your wiring based on the construction of your walls. Do not assume that it's safe just because the internet tells you that 2.5mm² cable is rated for 20A.
     
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  19. KegLand-com-au

    www.KegLand.com.au - A Land of Stainless Steel AHB Sponsor

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    Posted 31/5/18
    We would agree "ask an electrician"
     
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  20. theSeekerr

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    Posted 31/5/18
    Indeed. Do you know the answer to my other question about stacking the new kegmenters?
     

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