Judging Standards And Fake Entries

[warrenlw63]

"I find them much akin to comparing dick sizes. "



Hey Wazza......Spoken like a true Paco Vale boy

Now who's talking sour grapes......

It's not what we Paco boys have it's how we use it.

Warren -

 

[shotduck]

Edit: Personally I don't enter them anymore either DJR. I find them much akin to comparing dick sizes. :lol: OTOH I never begrudge those who enjoy doing so. Different strokes for different folks.

Dicks?
Strokes?
*Maintains eye contact... backs away slowly...* :blink:

 

[Kai]

I don't think the "bad bottle" clause has been invoked, as there are 4 entries with a difference of between 20 and 39 points, so yes i'll be waiting for the tasting notes with baited breath!

Maybe the beers were past their prime, due to age and travel issues. It can happen, and I can see it happening moreso with an apa.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Who's to say the AABC didn't get it right, maybe the state comps are the ones that stuffed it! (I am not saying they did).

While I agree that discussion is good, if I was an organiser or judge or steward at a competion I would be extremely upset by some of the comments posted in this thread.
These people spend a lot of time and effort, for no gain, to be there to judge and run these competitions. They get very little if any public recognition and here they are getting slammed because your results aren't what you expected.

If you think the way these competitions are run is not up to standard then perhaps joining the committee and making a real effort to affect the changes you feel are required is what you should be doing.
Sorry if this offends anyone, but I really don't think this thread is very constructive and, yes, it does smack of sour grapes.

cheers
Andrew

 

[///]

Not condeming or defending either, just looking at the numbers and the outcomes.

interesting reading ...

Scotty

 

[Trough Lolly]

I am going to chime in here on discrepancies in the judging process. This is for the AABC vs the other competitions that were run. Now i could have put this into the AABC results thread but it's better not to cloud it.

The specific example is the Pale Ale category. Now the BJCP defines three classes here, that AABA/vicbrew decided to lump into one - Amber Hybrid (including Steam/CC), American Pale Ale, India Pale Ale and Australian Pale Ale.
...[snip]...
Notice how different the scores are? If this is SERIOUSLY the judging standard that we are going to expect, with as much as a 39 point difference, what is the point of entering at all? You might as well throw darts at a board to decide the winner.

I shudder to think of what would happen if Ashley H had entered his APA that qualified at SABSOSA!

There's one other thing to note....have a read of Rule D1 in the AABC rules:

D1. Qualification. To qualify for the Australian Amateur Brewing Championship, a brewer must have placed first, second or third (and scored at least 60% of maximum possible points) in one of the years State/Territory Qualifying Championships (see D8 for handling tied placings). Entries must be in the same category/categories as the placing(s) achieved in the State/Territory Qualifying Championship. If the original beer is no longer available, the brewer may enter the same or a different style (in that category). The beer style must be a designated style for the category, as listed on the AABA category/style list available on the AABA website. The organisers reserve the right to reclassify non-conforming beers (i.e. in a non-listed style) to a listed AABC style.

**Emphasis added by me.

So you may not be judging the exact same batch of beer in the nationals, compared to what qualified in the lead up comp...If I brewed an earth shatteringly good Oktoberfest that scored its socks off in the local comp and got me through to the nationals, I may have drunk it all beforehand and put together another batch to submit in the AABC comp, which may or may not have been as good... That's the risk I need to accept. h34r:

...and perhaps the judges at both comps got it right after all? :unsure:

Cheers,
TL

 

[DJR]

OK i think i've taken all this on the wrong foot...

As this was the first time i'd entered AABC i thought it was a little strange to see such a difference in scores, but i guess the differences are due to judging processes which i can't really fault. So if anyone has taken offence then i apologise, it wasn't my intention. I wasn't for a moment suggesting that i should clean up, get grand champ brewer, etc. I'll leave that to the more experienced brewers out there who deserve the recognition more than me.

Sure some of this may be seen as sour grapes, but it's just more stuff to learn for me. Having the 2nd APA in the nationals is nothing to be sneezed at, i wish it was more than that, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. I wasn't expecting anything to start with at the start of the comps, as it was only my 2nd AG and my 1st AG APA.

My main beef is that the categories were not consistent and that a couple of entries i know of could not be entered even though they had successfully qualified, all because of disagreements between the organising committees. Perhaps a more coherent strategy from all parties involved, even just some compromise from either side, may see the next AABC comp a little better organised and satisfying more people. These were NOT my beers at all, but i do feel that the judges were not tasting all that was out there ready to be judged at the top level, all because of some silly rules that at the end of the day are still the rules that all the entrants must adhere to.

 

[wee stu]

Until I see my results sheets, I have nothing material to comment upon.

AS kai has said, some beers may just have peaked too early. My stout, for one, is apparently in a steady and terminal decline

The equivalent time series scores for it are

Comp.............Score.......Judged
SABSOSA.......120pts.....September
ANAWBS..........112.5......October
AABC................78.5.....November

I don't think I will be saving the few remaining bottles until Xmas

Many thanks to the organisers for taking the time and trouble to run the competition.
I look forward to my judging sheets.

 

[Barry]

Good Day
One factor that can affect outcomes (certainly not the only all explaining one) is distance in my experience.
The greater the distance I have to send the entries the greater the inconsistencies between scores/comments/personal evaluations. Crafted beer does not benefit usually from travel, high temps and high temp variation (though a tripel I enter recently certainly seem to benefit from the long trip, extra character?). Local brewers usually appear to score better in comps because of the lack of travel, less worries with the variations in temp etc. So the local entries might be/seem "fresher" to the judges while interstate entries might have to survive a lucky dip of conditions (some affected, others not).
If you are judging beer to style the class should not influence the score if the beers are judged in correct order eg Aussie pale, then APA then IPA. The APA should be judged against the APA style, the IPA against its style guide. There could be trouble judging if the IPA's were judged before the APA's but I doubt that this would happen.
I have had more disappointing scores than good ones but I got great deal of feedback from it (most of which I have agreed with over time). I enter comps for fun, feedback, challenge of a new style and I like to judge in comps for fun, meet a great group of people, talk about brewing and beer, etc. :beer:
As a judge I am certain that my scoring and comments have not always been right but like every judge I have had the pleasure to judge with I try my upmost best.
In the end I brew, enter comps and judge for fun, I go to work for money.

 

[Wreck]

Well said!

 

[mikem108]

hear hear Barry, in my case it was the opposite NSW judges absolutely slayed my IPA entry which got second in SA so go figure, no point in getting "sour" about it, unless is Les's entry we are talking about

 

[Stuster]

I think Barry's right about the effect of distance. My altbier scored 30 lower at AABC than at the state comp, but it's certainly possible that this was due to the travel. I posted the beer on a Friday and I guess it was stuck in some post bag (probably upside down after getting shaken around) over the weekend before being delivered on Monday. The variable effects of PO handling might go some way to explaining how some beers were unaffected by travel, while others were badly affected.

A positive I have noted personally from entering comps is that I pay more attention to the aroma/taste/etc of my beers than I did previously. I'm happy with the feedback I received from the state comps. While the categories at the national/state categories need to be standardised, I've found entering these events to be helpful with making and (most importantly) drinking good beer. :chug:

Thanks to all who give up their free time to make comps happen. :beer:

 

[Trent]

First up
Thanks, nay, a massive thanks, to all who have participated and helped in the comps around the country that have led up to the aabc, and the aabc itself. I am very proud that my AIPA came third, and may I correct DJR's numbers, and say it was 111 at state, and 102.5 at the aabc (well done to asher for his 122, musta been a hell of a beer). I must say that I was a little shocked at the performance of my brown porter, having beaten Barry Cranston's excellent robust porter at state by 15 points odd (cant recall exact numbers), and then finish 20 points behind Barry's robust porter in the nationals. This is not sour grapes, as I know from experience that Barry's porter is excellent, but I just found it unusual. I do look forward to getting back the sheets, as I got some excellent feedback from state, quite alot of which I can put to good use to improve my upcoming brews, even the ones that did well, and I am sure that the aabc sheets will be the same. I am sure that the distance has done my beer no favours, and it is getting on a bit in age, but the winning pale came all the way from west oz, so if distance was going to tarnish it, thats where it woulda been noticed most. I think it would probably be a good idea to have all the comps run similar, seeings as the best of show in nsw wasnt even allowed to enter the nats, but at the end of the day, judging is quite a subjective art, and it allows me different insights into my brews.
Thanks again to all the volunteers, and congrats to all the winners!
All the best
Trent

 

[Weizguy]

Maybe the Nat comp should have a group of tasters in each state, with an average score across the nation.

...like Eurovision!

And U have to send 2 bottles to each venue. Sure it'd cost a packet, but HELL...U want standardised scoring don't U? Maybe the AABC organisers could put some sponsor money toward the postage/packing costs.

I'd feel more comfortable with this plan, wouldn't U? :super:

And a video link hook-up to discourage beer or score tampering...just so U could see the faces the judges make as they sample the infected sauer weisse. (Hey, don't mention the war.) :chug:

Seth (teninchtongue firmly in cheek)

Edit: sober spelling is slower and still has the same result due to dyslexic fingers.