Judging Standards And Fake Entries

[warrenlw63]

whats woftam short for?

Try this page for a better explanation.

Warren -

 

[Thommo]

Just want to clear something up.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with entering an infected or far from perfect beer into a comp for an honest evaluation. It's a good way to get tips on how to improve a beer or to identify how a fault or infection happened. Comps aren't all about the bling and the glamour, they serve another helpful purpose that can sometimes be overlooked.

It is however inexcusable to enter an infected APA as a Gueuze and see if you can win any awards that way. Fooling judges with your re-bottled Little Creatures doesn't make you more clever than them, nor does it discredit a competition in any way, it just shows you have too much time on your hands, and it may take away a prize from someone more deserving.

Cheers,
Thommo.

 

[Lukes]

I wonder if this lady has entered any comps in Africa with this killer brew. :blink:

 

[warrenlw63]

I wonder if this lady has entered any comps in Africa with this killer brew. :blink:

No, however I think her husband may have taken me the long way to the airport in his taxi the other day. :lol:

Warren -

 

[Lindsay Dive]

So a homebrewer makes a beer and it turns out that it is not quite right.

They think there may be something wrong with it but are not quite sure. Probably due to the fact that they brewer is a young brewer and does not have much experience eg me.

What is the problem with entering a beer like that in a comp?

I'snt this a good oppurtunity for the brewer to get his beer assessed by more their more experienced peers and find out what they may have done wrong and be able to change part of the brewing process next time?

I'snt this what judging is about?

Or are judges assessing beers contantly worrying about the infected beer they may get that will "screw their palates"?

cheers
johnno

Johnno,

I think you have hit the nail on the head as far as what the entrant wishes to get in terms of feed back from a competition.
You here this time and time again...."I just can't get this beer right and I want to know what I'm doing wrong".
Hopefully, the judges are up to speed and can let the entrant know.
It's not nice getting an infected beer, however, you're not forced to taste it! If it does slip your guard and you do taste a badly infected beer, let me tell you, it can take some munching on water busicuits, bread and swilling lot's of water before you're ready for the next beer. I am pretty sure that there would be numerous judges that would agree with me on this one.

Regards,
Lindsay.

P.S. Dr. K you are absolutely spot on!

 

[///]

You here this time and time again...."I just can't get this beer right and I want to know what I'm doing wrong".

[/quote]

I think we would agree that the judge is to judge the beer, not make judgements on the beer or the brewer! And what better way than to have your Peers make recomendations.

Scotty

 

[Lindsay Dive]

Just want to clear something up.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with entering an infected or far from perfect beer into a comp for an honest evaluation.
Cheers,
Thommo.

Thommo,

I am of the opinion that there is a vast difference between and infected beer and a beer that is far from perfect.
An infected beer to me is intirely that and should be discarded.
I am NOT into telling people what the infection is and how to eliminate it. Let the Chemists handle that job!

Regards,
Lindsay.

 

[Adamt]

This problem is not unique in society.

Brewing is an art, we know that. What judges taste, enjoy, and believe is in style is a matter dependant on opinion. Opinion creates problems, especially when it comes to competitiveness.

How many pieces of art in the art gallery do you look at and go "that's terrible, its just a blank page with a few squiggles and colours on it, no skill at all", yet it's behind 3 security guards and is worth more than your entire extended family? I discovered this early in my life, just before high school and really made me dislike things judged on opinion, hence I'm now a maths/science geek who likes being judged on the correct answer.

But I digress, I like the idea of BJCP judging, an attempt to quantify each defining part of the beer, based on the style guidelines. The individual scores are devised, based on opinion, however through training a consistent taste calibration of these ratings could be achieved.

Entering a recapped and recarb'd beer in my opinion is not a problem for judges. It is a problem for the brewer in the same way a plagiarised document is for a writer. A plagiarised beer may still be a good beer, and should be judged accordingly to style. However should a beer-plagiarist win a competition or a prize, it's an ethical problem for the brewer which may not be able to be prevented.

Entering a beer that the brewer knows is not perfect is fine. Why isn't it? Judges should be able to pick up flaws based on the style, each judge be able to make a similar judgement. If a judge gives good scores for a pilsener in the APA category there's a problem. Consistent scores shows the brewer the problem areas with the beer and allows him/her to rectify these to create a better beer. This is EXACTLY what we want in the homebrewing society, better beer.

However, all judging is based on style. The styles are defined by BJCP to discern different ales/lagers and specialties. Your favourite summer beer may not exactly fit a specific style, should it not be entered? If it were entered, the brewer should expect judges to pick out style problems with the beer, as well as any minor infections/off-flavours, etc.

Human judges can never be perfect. There is always an error in human processes, no matter how skilled that person may be. I'm sure (with all due respect), many judges for our local competitions are far from perfect. On a different day a different winner may be announced out of a select few.

Brewing competitions shouldn't be taken with complete seriousness. Sure they are competitive, but it is the opinion of the judges that will ultimately determine the winner. Remember, there are worse competitions out there. Think of the "Academy Awards", no scoring, no visible judges, just "YOU WIN! Congratulations on your next movie being worth an extra $200 million to you".

Brewing competitions should be fun and informative, honest place-getters should be happy for making a quality beer and should strive to further perfect their beer to style or personal taste. Relax, don't worry, have, and brew a homebrew you are happy with.

 

[Belgrave Brewer]

Just want to clear something up.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with entering an infected or far from perfect beer into a comp for an honest evaluation.
Cheers,
Thommo.

Thommo,

I am of the opinion that there is a vast difference between and infected beer and a beer that is far from perfect.
An infected beer to me is intirely that and should be discarded.
I am NOT into telling people what the infection is and how to eliminate it. Let the Chemists handle that job!

Regards,
Lindsay.

If you are entering an infected beer into competition, it should be in the infected beer category. Not sure if you would be proud to win this category...1st Place - Best Infected Beer!!!

Would you inform the Judge that it was infected before it was tasted? Sorry if I'm out of place, but I would have a serious problem with entering an infected beer.

 

[user 384]

Personally I think the BJCP is a load of bollocks. Apart from having misgivings about their revisionist approach to style guidleines (Irish Red Ale :lol: , American Brown Ale :lol: ), their approach to accrediting judges is also crap. From an educational perspective it overly focuses on one particular learning style. To qualify you must take an exam. This automatically favours those with good rote learning abilities. Further, assessment by 100% exam is often associated with a lack of a broad and critical understanding of the subject matter. Admittedly the exam does require essay responses that mitigate the negative aspects of rote learning to some degree, but it is still heavily weighted to simply demonstrating an ability to recall or "parrot back" information. This aspect accounts for 70% of all marks in the BJCP exam.

The actual ability to taste beer only accounts for 30% of the exam . I believe this is the most damning aspect of the BJCP. Who really gives a rat's arse if you can recite back differences between a BoPils and German Pilsner. I want to know that you have the palate to TASTE the difference. Not only is the tasting component worth only 30% of the overall score but you are only assessed on 4 beers.

Yes we need good beer judges but the BJCP is not the Holy Grail it's ofetn held out to be and I think a simple evaluation of the BJCP's pedagogy highlights this.

Then when you start to look at ranking of judges and the criteria for achieveing the next level, the BJCP becomes even more farcical. Have a look for yourself and tell me if you don't piss your pants laughing at the notion of being called a Grand Master - First Degree. Also, titles such as Honorary Grand Master further cast into doubt the seriousness of the qualifications. To quote the BJCP "Honoray Grand Master - Created in 2005, this is a permanent rank bestowed upon individuals by the BJCP Board of Directors for extraordinarily long and meritorious service involving significant, meaningful and continuous work for the BJCP program. Individuals receiving this rank are authorized to wear and use the Grand Master pin and rank" :lol: . The whole ranking system makes it sound like some weird lodge rather than a system of accreditation.

But as I have already said, I think the system is flawed as it pays lip service to a persons palate and actual ability to taste and evaluate beers.

OK, what' the answer then? I don't have one, but BJCP is not it.

For anyone interested in learning more about the BJCP exam and wants to make up their own mind about it's ability to properly accredit an individuals ability to taste beer, then go here.

I know this is going to upset those who have put time and effort into gaining their BJCP qualifications and as I understand it, the process of studying for the exam is highly worthwile and enlightening, but you don't need BJCP to go through the process of tasting and learning about beer.

Cheers
MAH

 

[Thommo]

I could well be the one who is out of place.

I'm doing the BJCP at the moment with some of the other Hills Brewers. I may have incorrectly assumed that since part of the course was about how to identify infections and off flavours that it was all "part of the service".

However, one thing I did notice with regard to a few of the infections is that it took me a bit of time to pick it up at all. Can't rember which ones directly, but at the time when we were sipping them some of them did not jump out and slam the senses into oblivion, if you know what I mean.

If I brewed a beer with a certain taste that I couldn't pick, and wasn't sure if it was an infection or merely some other fault caused by my processes, or if it was a style new to me and I wanted to know if this particular "taste" belonged to this style, or if I was using a new yeast for the first time and wasn't sure if this could perhaps explain the new taste, then I would have no qualms about entering it into a comp.

Having said that, let me explain how I came up with my Gueuze example in my earlier post. I brewed an APA that tasted OK out of the fermenter, but once bottled developed a sour, gut wrenching puckering taste to it. Took it along to the BJCP boys one night. They all agreed it absolutely sucked. Definately an infection. We tried to determine where the problem occurred, etc.

Two hours later, after the notes and discussion of the nights topic were out of the way, it was time to taste the style chosen for that night. 17. Sour Ale. That night I tasted my first, (and only) Guezue, which led to someone exclaiming, "This is what you've made, Thommo, a Gueuze."

I wasn't tempted to enter it in a comp as a 17E to see if it would do any good in a different to intended class, but it was surprisingly similar to the commercial Gueuze example we had just been subjected to. (Perhaps a little more sour and puckering.)

Personally, I don't know how people can drink Gueuze, but if anyone wants 18 litres of an infected APA that tastes similar to my tastebuds, drop me a PM.


EDIT: (in response to Mah's post whilst I was typing this one.)

I'd have to agree that the BJCP is not perfect and probably will never be.

Having said that though, the experience I personally have gained from it I have found invaluable.

I am not (and will never be) the best beer judge on the planet. I won't even come close. I can barely tell the diffence between a Guezue and my own infected APA!!! However the course has exposed me to new styles I never would have tried, and caused me to evaluate the beer I drink with a new outlook and a different view. More importantly, and this is the real reason I signed up for it in the first place, it has improved my brewing.

There will always be a subjective aspect to the judging process. There's no way around this. I don't have the answer either, but in the absence of a competing standard, I'm happy to use the BJCP as a guide.

 

[Thommo]

My fingers are starting to hurt from all this typing. How does PistolPatch do it?

 

[user 384]

I'd have to agree that the BJCP is not perfect and probably will never be.

Having said that though, the experience I personally have gained from it I have found invaluable.

...........the course has exposed me to new styles I never would have tried, and caused me to evaluate the beer I drink with a new outlook and a different view.

I agree that the BJCP journey is a valuable one, my gripe is that the exam, which is the formal accreditation component is IMHO crap.

I think that competition committees can replicate much of the BJCP experience themself and they would have the confidence to know their standards for judges are being met. Effectively they would be self accreditating, which is exactly what the BJCP is (BJCP has never been independently evaluated).

I know it would be a big burden for a competition committee to train their own judges, hence the appeal of a third party provider like BJCP.

Cheers
MAH

 

[Voosher]

I've been reluctant to wade into this whole debate primarily because those who associated with amateur comps work bloody hard and don't deserve to have their efforts disparaged. They are after all AMATEUR comps and nobody is obliged to enter.

But if one thing goes to the nub of my problems with comps this sums it up perfectly...

Having said that, let me explain how I came up with my Gueuze example in my earlier post. I brewed an APA that tasted OK out of the fermenter, but once bottled developed a sour, gut wrenching puckering taste to it. Took it along to the BJCP boys one night. They all agreed it absolutely sucked. Definately an infection. We tried to determine where the problem occurred, etc.

Two hours later, after the notes and discussion of the nights topic were out of the way, it was time to taste the style chosen for that night. 17. Sour Ale. That night I tasted my first, (and only) Guezue, which led to someone exclaiming, "This is what you've made, Thommo, a Gueuze."

Nothing personal Thommo and the fact that you didn't enter it into a comp is duly noted however, contrary to your colleague's observation you hadn't made a Gueuze. You'd made an APA which tasted like a Gueuze.

Comps therefore become a test of a brewer's ability to taste their own beers and adjudicate them to determine into which class to enter them; not a test of a brewer's ability to brew a beer to style. A true brewing comp would also have to monitor ingredients and techniques which is obviously impractical.

Amateur comps have their place and their organisers and officials deserve full credit for the time and effort they put into them. When I feel I can brew to style and well enough I may well enter one but I hope I don't ever taste my APA and decide to enter it as a Gueuze.

(Rarely activated) Rave mode /off.


Edit: Raving and accurate typing are incompatible activites.

 

[warrenlw63]

Individuals receiving this rank are authorized to wear and use the Grand Master pin and rank" :lol: . The whole ranking system makes it sound like some weird lodge rather than a system of accreditation.

Rumour has it (this whole thing started on rumours) you also receive a nifty light sabre with pearl inlays. :lol:

Warren -

 

[Tseay]

Hey Thommo,

You didn't happen to give me a bottle of the infected APA along with good stuff. Thinking back to the taste I wonder. A note to judges at this weekend's comp, please bring your own body armour. There is a tunnel under the judging building that will help you escape from the enraged crowd outside. The HBG chaplain will be on hand to administer confession and the last rites. On the spot conversions are accepted.

Seriously, I am a member of a professional assocaition that is going through almost eaxctly the same debate. A formal acceditation process was introduced a couple of years ago and now it's coming under scruitiny. In the case I mention there is no practical part to the exam. Again, it's much better to be part of the solution than to be part of the problem. Judges do need to be trained where necessary and accredited. There probably needs to be a bigger allowance for accedited prior experience in the process. Also the exam format is daunting. No doubt about it and may not produce the corect outcome. But untill we have a bit of organisation behind brewers, it will be hard to move forward.

 

[Borret]

Individuals receiving this rank are authorized to wear and use the Grand Master pin and rank" :lol: . The whole ranking system makes it sound like some weird lodge rather than a system of accreditation.

Rumour has it (this whole thing started on rumours) you also receive a nifty light sabre with pearl inlays. :lol:

Warren -

Ni Ni Ni

These are they that hold the Grand Master rank.... and only drink from the Holy Grail..



Brent

 

[Thommo]

Having said that, let me explain how I came up with my Gueuze example in my earlier post. I brewed an APA that tasted OK out of the fermenter, but once bottled developed a sour, gut wrenching puckering taste to it. Took it along to the BJCP boys one night. They all agreed it absolutely sucked. Definately an infection. We tried to determine where the problem occurred, etc.

Two hours later, after the notes and discussion of the nights topic were out of the way, it was time to taste the style chosen for that night. 17. Sour Ale. That night I tasted my first, (and only) Guezue, which led to someone exclaiming, "This is what you've made, Thommo, a Gueuze."

Nothing personal Thommo and the fact that you didn't enter it into a comp is duly noted however, contrary to your colleague's observation you hadn't made a Gueuze. You'd made an APA which tasted like a Gueuze.

Voosher,

rest assured the comment was tongue in cheek, and everyone present took it this way. No one believed for a second that I had made a gueuze, no matter the similarities it was still nothing more than an infected APA.

Sorry for the misleading quote; I thought this translated well enough as typed. I will have to learn to use these things more often.

I guess it comes down to what you want out of the comp. If you're using them to improve your beers and techniques, there's no way you'd even consider doing what you suggested. If you believe your APA would do better as an IPA (or should I say AIPA??? - that's a whole other issue) then I guess there is nothing from stopping you from doing this. Some people will think you are only cheating yourself. (And I guess someone else if you take out his rightful prize.) Others may think there is nothing wrong with this. Who am I to decide that they are going about it the wrong way, even if it's not something I would do personally?

Nothings perfect. I guess it's down to the individual. We each have our own feelings, beliefs, morals, religions, and favourite beers. There will never be a perfect fit for all involved.

Sorry for ranting all day on this. (I haven't got much work done today, let me tell you.) All this ranting is making me thirsty. Can't wait for 5 o'clock. I've got a cold so I'm going home to cook up a mean mutha of a Chilli, and then wash it down with a few German Pilsners. (It was supposed to be a Bohemian) :blink:

Thommo.

 

[Thommo]

Individuals receiving this rank are authorized to wear and use the Grand Master pin and rank" :lol: . The whole ranking system makes it sound like some weird lodge rather than a system of accreditation.

Rumour has it (this whole thing started on rumours) you also receive a nifty light sabre with pearl inlays. :lol:

Warren -

Ni Ni Ni

These are they that hold the Grand Master rank.... and only drink from the Holy Grail..

View attachment 9822

Brent

And to become one of them you must give them...........A SHRUBBERY

 

[Kai]

I wonder if entering a re-badged or dodgy wine would be picked up in a similar competition?

Maybe, but even in beer I don't think it seems to be a big problem. Homebrewers seem to be reasonably honest folk.

So a homebrewer makes a beer and it turns out that it is not quite right.

They think there may be something wrong with it but are not quite sure. Probably due to the fact that they brewer is a young brewer and does not have much experience eg me.

What is the problem with entering a beer like that in a comp?

I'snt this a good oppurtunity for the brewer to get his beer assessed by more their more experienced peers and find out what they may have done wrong and be able to change part of the brewing process next time?

I'snt this what judging is about?

Or are judges assessing beers contantly worrying about the infected beer they may get that will "screw their palates"?

There's nothing wrong with that at all, it's one of the reasons we have home brew competitions. However, that wasn't what the original comment was about. The line that spawned the infection talk was:

It is bad form to deliberately enter a bad beer, especially if you know it to be infected. It screws the judges palates and may damage another brewers chances.

There's a difference between wanting feedback on a beer that may or may not be infected (after all, an inexperienced brewer might now know) and entering a beer that is infected enough to heavily affect the flavour. Remember, every beer is infected it's just the extent that's important... I've had visibily infected beers that had no trace of infection on the flavour.

I know this is going to upset those who have put time and effort into gaining their BJCP qualifications and as I understand it, the process of studying for the exam is highly worthwile and enlightening, but you don't need BJCP to go through the process of tasting and learning about beer.

That's about the only line I agree with 100% - you don't need BJCP to go through the process of learning about beer. Maybe the qualifications ought to involve more emphasis on the sensory side, but I'm sure that would also increase the cost and difficulty of the exam quite a lot. I'm ambivalent over whether that is necessary or not, though.

Beyond that, I see two threads - dislike of the BJCP guidelines and dislike of the examination method. Having spent the last few years taking them, I know you can pass exams by rote learning the week (or night) before. However, you never get a good grade that way. To do that you need to know what you're writing about, although that is somewhat dependent on the structure and quality of the exam.

I also still don't quite grasp what the shortcoming is with the BJCP guidelines either. I think revisionist is a bit harsh - styles aren't cast in stone, new ones like american brown are acceptable if enough similar examples are in production. Irish red, I don't know about so much though. I do have bones of contention with how vague some of the guidelines are, especially some of the american ones, but when it comes down to it (and I hate this statement as much as I love using it) they're only guidelines. And, they're the best and most comprehensive guidelines available too.

Can you brew or run a comp without them, and without judging accreditation? Absolutely. It's definitely not a waste of time to have either, though. The guidelines are an invaluable source of information to new brewers - I have brewed many successful examples of styles right off the bat purely by reading the style guidelines and formulating a recipe to suit. And with regards to accreditation, all of us here who have been studying towards the BJCP exam have learned a huge amount just from our study, something none of us would have done without this programme.