Judging Standards And Fake Entries

[Voosher]

Voosher,

rest assured the comment was tongue in cheek, and everyone present took it this way. No one believed for a second that I had made a gueuze, no matter the similarities it was still nothing more than an infected APA.

Sorry for the misleading quote; I thought this translated well enough as typed. I will have to learn to use these things more often.


Thommo.

All good. Probably more me being a little oversensitive.
And you're not ranting as far as I'm concerned. I think this has been a vibrant and interesting thread.
I think we're singing from similar hymn sheets anyway 'cos I pretty much agree with the rest of it as well.

Especially this...

Can't wait for 5 o'clock.

And as I can't wait it's Beer Hour Now.
Enjoy your BoGermans and chilli.
Cheers.
:chug:

 

[user 384]

Having spent the last few years taking them, I know you can pass exams by rote learning the week (or night) before. However, you never get a good grade that way. To do that you need to know what you're writing about, although that is somewhat dependent on the structure and quality of the exam.

Very true, but you don't need a high pass to become BJCP accredited. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you need a minimum of 60% to be accredited.

I also still don't quite grasp what the shortcoming is with the BJCP guidelines either...... And, they're the best and most comprehensive guidelines available too.

Again, very true, which is the sad thing because I still believe they need to be viewed with a critical eye. They would make a great starting point for a competition committee to adapt and enhance. I also accept your point that they're useful for new brewers to help with recipe formulation. But again I would say that in this regard they're just a good starting point. Take the basics from the guidelines, read more and drink more widely to enhance your own appreciation of the particular style.

And with regards to accreditation, all of us here who have been studying towards the BJCP exam have learned a huge amount just from our study, something none of us would have done without this programme.

Although I'm very critical of the BJCP, I openly admit that this is the real benefit of the BJCP. BJCP is accesible and structured and in this regard it's a useful tool, but one that could be replicated by other means.

I suppose my original comment that the BJCP is bollocks is a tad harsh. There are definitely elements that are laudable. The thing that gives me jip, is that the BJCP accreditation is often held out as the panacea for competition problems. If it was not treated as an end point, but as a good place to start and adapt then I would be less critical.

Is it possible to develop a better alternative to BJCP? Yep! Can I be arsed to develop a better alterantive? Nope!

Cheers
MAH

 

[Kai]

Very true, but you don't need a high pass to become BJCP accredited. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you need a minimum of 60% to be accredited.

60% gets you 'recognised' status, 70% and five experience points gets you 'certified'. But yes, min 60% to be accredited. As you work up the rankings you need progressively more judging experience points which would help your ability in and of itself. Unless you judge poorly over and over, of course.

Again, very true, which is the sad thing because I still believe they need to be viewed with a critical eye. They would make a great starting point for a competition committee to adapt and enhance. I also accept your point that they're useful for new brewers to help with recipe formulation. But again I would say that in this regard they're just a good starting point. Take the basics from the guidelines, read more and drink more widely to enhance your own appreciation of the particular style.

Agreed, they're a great starting point. They'd be very limiting if you used them as boundaries, but it would take a long time to reach that limit.

Although I'm very critical of the BJCP, I openly admit that this is the real benefit of the BJCP. BJCP is accesible and structured and in this regard it's a useful tool, but one that could be replicated by other means.

I suppose my original comment that the BJCP is bollocks is a tad harsh. There are definitely elements that are laudable. The thing that gives me jip, is that the BJCP accreditation is often held out as the panacea for competition problems. If it was not treated as an end point, but as a good place to start and adapt then I would be less critical.

Is it possible to develop a better alternative to BJCP? Yep! Can I be arsed to develop a better alterantive? Nope!

Cheers
MAH

I don't think I'd even be able to develop a better alternative, but I definitely couldn't be arsed either. BJCP definitely isn't the be-all and end-all, but it's a good foundation. It's not, in keeping with the off-topic posts in this thread, the holy grail. On that it seems we both agree.

 

[dr K]

I have no problem with those who feel that the BJCP is a load of twaddle, that anyone can pass it, that is worth nothing. I have heard it all before and worse.
I have had to deal with people, and unfortunately influential people who, quite frankly act like xenophobes...they see a problem with this "Foreign" system being foisted apon us and worse us having to send money "overseas".

At the outset I stated

Just because someone has BJCP training and even recognition does not mean that they are a great judge.
It does mean, however, that their skills and knowledge have been tested and assessed by recognised and highly experienced peers and that they have been acknowleged.

Rant against the BJCP all you like I guess, but do not then turn around to me and tell me that you are a judge for I will ask you ..how?.
The BJCP progam in Australia has it origins over 2 years ago , the first study groups (Canberra, Melbourne, Sydney and Newcastle ) started early 2005, and there have been another lot go through this year.
From all of this we now increased our Certified list in Australia from 1 in 2004 to four in 2006, with a maximum of three more possibly by the end of 2006.
Not a lot for a parrot exam is it??

The BJCP is a constantly evolving organisation, an organisation cannot evolve without discussion and comment thus I have no problem with anti-BJCP crowd, they actually make, in their own way, a positive contribution.

kurtz

 

[goatherder]

With apologies to Churchill, BJCP is the worst beer judging system we know, except for all of the others.

Have a think about what BJCP actually achieves. It takes the massively complex multidimensional spectrum of beer types and slots them into bins for classification. Then it trains human judges to evaluate these beers based on SUBJECTIVE sensory perception. And it does a pretty reasonable job. Amazing.

Case in point is a Berliner Weisse beating out all comers, including IPAs and Old Ales, to win BOS at the NSW comp. I feel this is a ringing endorsement for the judge training and the style classification of the BJCP.

The BJCP provides a structured progression for beer judges. Sure, it might be a bit wanky but it provides a judge with an education platform which they can build on with experience for their whole life. Seeing some of the BJCP trained first-time judges at NSW gave me a lot of confidence that this is a good thing.

It is also important to understand that the BJCP has limitations and that the BCJP style guidelines do not fully represent the entire beer spectrum. Styles like gose, czech dark lager, aussie sparkling ale, zwickel and the sorghum beers of south africa aren't BJCP styles. Maybe they should be, but on the other hand maybe the line needs to be drawn somewhere for the purposes of running a comp.

I think the debate needs to continue and Aussie HBers need to be part of the debate. If we are not a part of the BJCP then we don't get to be part of the debate.

 

[browndog]

Rumour has it (this whole thing started on rumours) you also receive a nifty light sabre with pearl inlays.

Warren -

Bahahahaha........ surely the best post so far.

Seriously though, I have been thinking about joining a brew club, but after reading this thread I'm not sure if it is worth bothering about (aside from the social aspect)


cheers

Browndog

 

[Screwtop]

Rumour has it (this whole thing started on rumours) you also receive a nifty light sabre with pearl inlays.

Warren -

Bahahahaha........ surely the best post so far.

Seriously though, I have been thinking about joining a brew club, but after reading this thread I'm not sure if it is worth bothering about (aside from the social aspect)


cheers

Browndog

I'm with you Browndog.

If these brewers feel so strongly about judging then the obvious positive response from them would be to volunteer as judges for comps or sit a BJCP exam. Obviously to consider oneself to be in a position capable of criticising judges then these learned brewers may wish to volunteer to judge beers privately, this would obviously be of great assistance to many brewers wanting feedback on a beer that may or may not be infected and save wasting the time of competent judges. Maybe there could be some really simple qualification/examination to qualify these pull-through's as certified detectors of infected brew, they could even be entitled to hang a shingle announcing such accreditation. I have a few possibly infected brews that I would sincerely like to waste their time with.

The one amusing aspect of this whole masturbate to me is that the comps will go on, as will BJCP judging. What will the knockers do with a fantastic beer, should they eventually brew one, they'll be so proud of their creation, possibly they'll secretly enter it into a comp, but because we have all read this thread they will NEVER LIVE IT DOWN.

This whole thread belongs in the WALOC file.

 

[Stuster]

Seriously though, I have been thinking about joining a brew club, but after reading this thread I'm not sure if it is worth bothering about (aside from the social aspect)

I hope not, browndog. Of course, the social aspect is great. But surely none of this has made you think that going to a brew club is a bad idea. You can learn about heaps of different things, styles and comps being only two of many. I have a little something planned for our club meeting tomorrow which (I hope :unsure: ) will be fun, educational ( :lol: ) and has absolutely nothing to do with styles or comps. Last time we did a group brew that was against all number of OH&S regulations but was a challenge for those who did the work and something for the onlookers to be amused by. And seven cubes of wort were taken home and fermented (or soon will be). :chug:

 

[homebrewworld.com]

OK my go
How bout you do the BJCP exam............ then bash the crap out of it!
Then enter a comp that isnt BJCP...........
Smell the roses.....

 

[Paleman]

Off on a tangent a touch. In this day and age of homebrewing, how many brews are actually infected ?

Theres not so good tasting beer. And theres great tasting beer ( and all in between ). But i doubt that there are many truely infected beers.

So do judges count a kit and kilo as an infected beer ?

IMHO. Home made/brewed beers are like making cakes. You have your supermarket packet cakes, then you have your super homemade Cream Tortes ( Cakes). Even the cream comes from the cow out the back. Neither cakes have gone off. And makers of both are happy with what they do.

Food/Beer for thought.

 

[goatherder]

Off on a tangent a touch. In this day and age of homebrewing, how many brews are actually infected ?

Theres not so good tasting beer. And theres great tasting beer ( and all in between ). But i doubt that there are many truely infected beers.

So do judges count a kit and kilo as an infected beer ?

IMHO. Home made/brewed beers are like making cakes. You have your supermarket packet cakes, then you have your super homemade Cream Tortes ( Cakes). Even the cream comes from the cow out the back. Neither cakes have gone off. And makers of both are happy with what they do.

Food/Beer for thought.

Paleman,

I was a steward at the NSW comp. I worked a couple of tables totalling about 25 beers and I tasted them all. According to the judges, 2 or 3 were infected. One of these was very noticable to a novice like me. It was great experience for me to taste these beers and be told what the problem was.

So infected beers do turn up in comps and I consider three out of 25, if this is representative of comps, to be a reasonably high incidence.

As for K&K beers, the judges had no idea what was K&K and what wasn't. I was steward, so I was cracking the bottles and pouring the beers and I had no idea. They just see a glass of beer with a number and style associated with it.

As for detecting K&K beers, the judges seemed to be more confident picking mash beers. They seemed to associate chill haze with mash beers - there were a couple of comments along these lines. It's impossible to say whether they were correct or not, I just found it an interesting association.

Turning to the quality of the beers, a couple were outstanding, about 10 or so were very nice clean drinkable beers with minor style faults, another 6ish were pretty average and the rest had pretty significant flaws.

What stood out to me about the bottom half of the beers was that the major flaws were from ignoring the basics of brewing. They were infected, oxidised, had noticeable diacetyl or were underattenuated, amongst other things. Adequate sanitation, strong healthy fermentation, temp control, oxygen-free transfer were the weak points in the brewers process for these beers. Simple, basic stuff.

If a beer was clean, well fermented and properly handled, and entered in the correct style, then it would score well, probably above 30. Mash, extract or K&K doesn't make any difference here I reckon.

GH

 

[Paleman]

Off on a tangent a touch. In this day and age of homebrewing, how many brews are actually infected ?

Theres not so good tasting beer. And theres great tasting beer ( and all in between ). But i doubt that there are many truely infected beers.

So do judges count a kit and kilo as an infected beer ?

IMHO. Home made/brewed beers are like making cakes. You have your supermarket packet cakes, then you have your super homemade Cream Tortes ( Cakes). Even the cream comes from the cow out the back. Neither cakes have gone off. And makers of both are happy with what they do.

Food/Beer for thought.

Paleman,

I was a steward at the NSW comp. I worked a couple of tables totalling about 25 beers and I tasted them all. According to the judges, 2 or 3 were infected. One of these was very noticable to a novice like me. It was great experience for me to taste these beers and be told what the problem was.

So infected beers do turn up in comps and I consider three out of 25, if this is representative of comps, to be a reasonably high incidence.

As for K&K beers, the judges had no idea what was K&K and what wasn't. I was steward, so I was cracking the bottles and pouring the beers and I had no idea. They just see a glass of beer with a number and style associated with it.

As for detecting K&K beers, the judges seemed to be more confident picking mash beers. They seemed to associate chill haze with mash beers - there were a couple of comments along these lines. It's impossible to say whether they were correct or not, I just found it an interesting association.

Turning to the quality of the beers, a couple were outstanding, about 10 or so were very nice clean drinkable beers with minor style faults, another 6ish were pretty average and the rest had pretty significant flaws.

What stood out to me about the bottom half of the beers was that the major flaws were from ignoring the basics of brewing. They were infected, oxidised, had noticeable diacetyl or were underattenuated, amongst other things. Adequate sanitation, strong healthy fermentation, temp control, oxygen-free transfer were the weak points in the brewers process for these beers. Simple, basic stuff.

If a beer was clean, well fermented and properly handled, and entered in the correct style, then it would score well, probably above 30. Mash, extract or K&K doesn't make any difference here I reckon.

GH

Interesting comments GH.

I have myself, just changed from K&K brews, to Partial Mash brews, using liquid yeast's. The change in taste, and quality is off the scale !!

Freshness is a big note, in my book. The twang is gone.

Being a K&K brewer for many years, i reckon i could pick nice Partial, over a fantastic K&K.

I made some beautifull kit and kilo beers with steeped grains and good yeast. Ive made some average partial grain beers, and some good ones, up till now. The average partials topple the fantastic K&K's. Just my opinion.

Good debate......then of course the all grain boys will have their views too.

 

[bigfridge]

The BJCP provides a structured progression for beer judges. Sure, it might be a bit wanky but it provides a judge with an education platform which they can build on with experience for their whole life. Seeing some of the BJCP trained first-time judges at NSW gave me a lot of confidence that this is a good thing.

I don't feel that I can add much to the full range of comments made so far, but Goatherder made a very good point.

I was fortunate to lead the 7 'BJCP trained first-time judges at NSW'. We spent about 40 hours tasting and discussing beer together with practising all aspects of the competition situation. Some of them drove 1-3 hours to get to our monthly meeting and all of them paid more than $200 each to cover the cost of the beers and the exam.

It was not due to my participation but their dedication that they felt prepared for the comp and (perhaps less so) the exam the next day.

All that I can say is that I doubt that any one of us would have spent that amout of time or effort focussed on the nuances of beer styles if it wasn't for the structure of the BJCP exam.

On the matter of the exam itself, I am an educator so know all the arguments against the current structure. But they are changing and the introduction of multiple choice questions and 'fill in the blanks' that we saw this year is a step in the right direction.

Having said all this, I have taken the exam on two occasions now and find it one of the most difficult that I have ever done - so much needs to be said, so little time. But it certainly was much easier the second time around.

HTH

David

 

[Weizguy]

Let me be the voice of dissent, on both sides of this argument.

Yep, I think there are problems with the BJCP exam, and that I wonder what the Inner workings and levels of judge-wankeriness, has to do with tasting beer.

I also have an opinion about our National competition. I'm thinkiing that a reasonable body would include beer styles that Aussies are brewing and enjoying. I brewed the Berliner for the NSW Xmas in July case, for brewers to enjoy; or at least become familiar with an example of the style.
It's not just me that brews a Berliner weisse. I have purchased one at Redoak (no affiliation). IMHO, mine was better, and more sour (humble, I said). Surely, a commercial example being available in the country must bring a beer into consideration for a style description in the National comp.

Anyway, I declare last drinks, and retire.

Thanks for the tutelage, David, and thanks for your support with the Berliner style.

Seth goooooooone

 

[Brewtus]

I can't help but to have my 2 cents worth. I know nothing of the BJCP exam or beer judging but I have done ITIL (IT wanky stuff) Prince 2 (project management wanky stuff) and been on Cisco (wanky router stuff) Micro soft and Novell (wanky computer stuff) course that lead to exams. In all cases when you do the exam they say there is the right way, the wong way and the Cisco way. Just because you would do it at work/home/somewhere else one way does not mean that it is the correct answer for the exam. The exams are designed not to see how well you can do something or if you can rote learn but to see if you a dedicated enough and listen enough to pass their exam. All the instructors I have had tell you there is many ways to get a good outcome in real life but you need to pass the exam to get the credability, then you can start making up the rules. If you ran every project with 'prince 2' you would drown in paperwork but if you know all the steps, you know where to take clever short cuts and where to spend the real effort. Passing Prince 2 doesn't make you a project manager but if you are a half decent PM then prince 2 makes sense and is much easier to follow and pass the exam. Studying these courses/fields give you a standard language and common base to start from and if you talk to another qualified person, even though others may think you are a complete tosser, you both understand exactly what the other means.

This BJCP exam sounds much the same. If you have the right passion you will do it and at the end see its faults but be able to get even better. You can still know a lot about beer and never go anywhere near an exam. At least those who do the exam have expressed their passion in a way that suits them and will have a common language and understanding of beer and will know all the correct wanky terms and thus be able to know exactly what the other guys mean. Defining styles etc is all part of it.

Hope that if you get this far into my rave you will at least understand the value of stuff like BJCP and see that even if that are only 50% right they are still 50% better than nothing.

 

[Trough Lolly]

Just want to clear something up.

IMO, there is nothing wrong with entering an infected or far from perfect beer into a comp for an honest evaluation. It's a good way to get tips on how to improve a beer or to identify how a fault or infection happened. Comps aren't all about the bling and the glamour, they serve another helpful purpose that can sometimes be overlooked.
<snip>

:blink:
I beg to differ on this...Comps are not workshops for infected brews. Spare a thought of the judges who have to carefully score one or more flights of beer over one or more days. As much fun as it sounds, there's a fair bit of work involved. The last thing a judge needs is an infected beer and a screwed palate.

I would never knowingly submit an infected beer into any comp - that, IMHO, is bad form. If you have a beer AND you know it's infected, don't put it into a comp....get thee to a fellow brewer or go to a club meeting and have a chat with other experienced brewers who may be prepared to taste your beer and give you guidance on where you may have gone wrong. At least the person you seek info from in this case knows what's coming and has a choice...

If you have a beer that isn't quite to style then that's a different matter. But for goodness sake, mindlessly tossing infected beers into competitions is wrong and if the judge ever found out who submitted the entry, and that person knew it was infected when they submitted it, well, I'd say the judge would have every right to give that person a bollocking. :angry:

TL <flamesuit on>

 

[Trough Lolly]

Off on a tangent a touch. In this day and age of homebrewing, how many brews are actually infected ?

How long's a piece of string? One would hope that with more sanitising and cleaning products available than ever before, and more readily accessible info sources such as this forum at the home brewers disposal, we should hope that infected beers are on the decline, but then again the proportion may be unchanged as more and more people try their hand at brewing...

Theres not so good tasting beer. And theres great tasting beer ( and all in between ). But i doubt that there are many truely infected beers.

The judges can sort out the quality of the beer produced, and yes, it's a good opportunity to get some valua ble feedback on your beer. You may discover that you don't use enough hops, or fresh extract or you have a flaw in your process that results in oxidised / cardboard flavours coming out in all your entries - and FWIW, I don't consider oxidised beer to be infected, just poorly handled. I don't have any stats to back me up but I suspect that the vast majority of entries at state and national comps are not infected - but that said, my beef is with those who know they have an infected beer and submit it anyway to see what's wrong with it, which IMHO is a waste of a judges time and palate - see my earlier rant!

So do judges count a kit and kilo as an infected beer ?

Jeez, I hoped you had your protective clothing on when you typed that line! h34r:
Of course K&K is not classed as infected beer and any fool making that assertion in a comp should go home and stop wasting other brewers time and effort. It wasn't all that long ago that extract and kit based beers were regularly bringing home the medals from top flight brewing competitions... When you think about it, any brewer who medals with kit based beer deserves a pat on the back for outdoing all grain based competitors.

Cheers,
TL

 

[johnno]

So it is definately NOT good form to enter a brew that you know is foul infected.

But it is ok to enter something that is not quite right? Maybe a slight infection as such?

Is this where we are up to?

cheers
johnno

 

[BrissyBrew]

I am interesting in improving my skills and knowledge so the BJCP certification program is attractive to me. I acknowledge that no system is perfect. The fact that this thread is so lively leads me to believe that in 5 years from now BJCP comps will dominate the Australian amateur brewing comps. Why uniformity. Will the BJCP still look the same in 5 years time, no idea.

As far as tasting goes. Expert sensory panels are evaluated. For taste stick out your tongue, the count and analyse the distribute of taste buds, you only want the top 5% of the population which are genetically super tasters. Next the important, costly and time consuming olfactory tests, adaptation and saturation sometimes means you need subjects to come back over a couple of days. Then after that you do some evaluations of see how easy it is to train certain subjects, look for consistency and threshold levels. It has been many years since I have study sensory perception but the short of it is some people have it some people don’t.

However training and standardisation of procedures has benefits for all.

 

[user 384]

Rant against the BJCP all you like I guess, but do not then turn around to me and tell me that you are a judge for I will ask you ..how?.

By completing the MAH Advanced Accreditation Program in International Beer Judging .

As I have said, BJCP is a self accrediting organisation. They don't have a set of industry standards that they have to work to, such as the Australian Qualifications Framework for post secondary eduction in Oz, or a quality auditor like the Australian Universities Quality Agency, which is an independent body that audits all Oz universities against the services they claim to provide. Your question of how are you a beer judge is equally valid for anyone who sits the BJCP. Just because BJCP claim to X doesn't mean it's true. How do they know they are producing good beer judges? What are they benchmarking against?

Yes there is a better chance that a BJCP certified judge will be better than a non-certified BJCP judge, but there is nothing to prove this. It is only an assumption.

Both ECU and Ballarat Uni offer truly accredited programs in brewing with beer evaluation components. Could graduates of such programs recognised by the Australian Qualifications Framework question the validity of BJCP accredited judges? In the context of recognisable qualifications, probably yes.

My point is simple, BJCP is untested and as such deserves to be viewed with a critical eye. It's hard to claim the high ground with an unrecognised qualification. An in-house training scheme run by a competition committee would have just as much validity.

Cheers
MAH