Is My Brew Infected?

[bigfridge]

ok quick update. i soaked the cube in bleach for a couple of days. used napisan for the cube overnight and then i did another brew on the weekend. belgian wit, and transferred it directly from the kettle to the cube 5 minutes after flameout. the cube buckled under the heat but i was able to get everything in with no headspace.

it sat in the jerry (with literally NO headspace) and left it on sunday to cool in the sink. got home this afternoon, puffed up like a rice bubble. straight down the sink.

i'm really over it now. 2 brews gone to waste. h34r:

Hughman666 - heat is a very effective sanatiser, but it has to contact (or be very near) all the surfaces in contact with the cooled wort.

Do you rotate etc your cube so that the lid and handle get at leat 15 minutes contact with the hot wort ? Contact means no insulating air bubbles.

If not you are just asking for trouble.

Dave

 

[hughman666]

Hughman666 - heat is a very effective sanatiser, but it has to contact (or be very near) all the surfaces in contact with the cooled wort.

Do you rotate etc your cube so that the lid and handle get at leat 15 minutes contact with the hot wort ? Contact means no insulating air bubbles.

If not you are just asking for trouble.

Dave

i pushed out all air so that there was absolutely no headspace. it was a challenge but even the handle section was filled with wort.

i am really at a loss here....

 

[hughman666]

one more question. i made up a starter by running off approx 1 litre of the wort from the cube around 30 minutes after it being in there, so it was still piping hot. i then cooled this down in its own sanitised "starter bottle" (3 litre bottle fitted with airlock etc. the yeast (wyeast 3944) took to the wort and it's now sitting in the fridge awaiting it's turn to be pitched.

should this yeast be ok, considering it came from that wort - would the wort have become infected sometime today when the wort temp dropped to around the 30c mark?

 

[PostModern]

Are you just yanking our chains? If not: Why are you opening the cube????? Once the wort is in there, don't open it until you're ready to put it into the fermenter and pitch yeast!! Hot and sealed wort is sanitary. It remains sanitary until you open it. Then, whatever microbe is fluttering around will find it an excellent place to settle down and raise a family. Especially at 30 degrees.

Dude, good luck.

 

[hughman666]

Are you just yanking our chains? If not: Why are you opening the cube????? Once the wort is in there, don't open it until you're ready to put it into the fermenter and pitch yeast!! Hot and sealed wort is sanitary. It remains sanitary until you open it. Then, whatever microbe is fluttering around will find it an excellent place to settle down and raise a family. Especially at 30 degrees.

Dude, good luck.

look, there's no need to be like that.

i ran some wort off from the tap, so the top lids weren't open. no air actually got in the cube, after closing the tap, the were still zero headspace. and this was after 30 mins in the cube so it was still boiling hot.

honestly, if you're going to be a tool don't bother responding.

 

[Stuster]

It's still a possible source of infection though, hughman. It doesn't really seem that risky in the way you describe it, but I guess there's a chance there was something on the tap. After 30 minutes, I wouldn't be surprised if it was below pasteurisation temp. It'd still feel hot, but if it was under 60C then it's still a worry. Did you sanitise the tap before using it?

I can understand how frustrated you must be. I've had infected brews before and it stinks. Personally, I still sanitise the cube with iodophor before using it, as well as a napisan soak at some point between uses. I think after all this, you'd be best off to get a new cube and hose and start from there. Hope you can solve this one.

 

[hughman666]

It's still a possible source of infection though, hughman. It doesn't really seem that risky in the way you describe it, but I guess there's a chance there was something on the tap. After 30 minutes, I wouldn't be surprised if it was below pasteurisation temp. It'd still feel hot, but if it was under 60C then it's still a worry. Did you sanitise the tap before using it?

I can understand how frustrated you must be. I've had infected brews before and it stinks. Personally, I still sanitise the cube with iodophor before using it, as well as a napisan soak at some point between uses. I think after all this, you'd be best off to get a new cube and hose and start from there. Hope you can solve this one.

yeah i'm feeling pretty low about it all. in response to your questions, the entire cube was sanitised, tap included, using the bleach/napisan combo. there was no way it was under 60c as it was a 42c day in perth yesterday and the cube was still painfully hot to touch, considerably hotter than mash water during sparging. my guess would have been that it would have been in the late 80s at least.

do you think i should ditch the yeast?

i'm doing as you recommend and will throw out this cube and hose. hopefully my 3rd attempt will be better.

cheers,

hugh

 

[berapnopod]

one more question. i made up a starter by running off approx 1 litre of the wort from the cube around 30 minutes after it being in there, so it was still piping hot. i then cooled this down in its own sanitised "starter bottle" (3 litre bottle fitted with airlock etc. the yeast (wyeast 3944) took to the wort and it's now sitting in the fridge awaiting it's turn to be pitched.

should this yeast be ok, considering it came from that wort - would the wort have become infected sometime today when the wort temp dropped to around the 30c mark?

If you filled your cube with boiling hot wort and are sure there were no air pockets inside, and made sure all the surfaces got the boiling treatment, and you didn't open it, then its difficult for me to understand how any infection could have gotten in there! I mean the thing was sealed with boiling liquid, right?
I just don't see how an infection could have gotten in. Would have to be a pretty damn funky infection to be able to survive your sanitising regime of bleach and napisan, then boiling hot wort.

(small point, but I would have used the napisan first, then the bleach, then rinse)

Your collection method for the starter was to just open a tap at the bottom and collect some wort while it was still hot, right? I don't see how that could introduce an infection, unless the wort was below about 60C and you managed to suck up a bit of air in the process of opening the tap.

BTW, did you check your tap to make sure there wasn't any gunk in it, or the threads or anything like that?

You mentioned you managed to get 3 litres for the starter. That sounds like a lot to bleed off from a 20 litre container, without having air being sucked into the container. Did you squeeze the container to get the wort out?

Apart from the fact that I have *NO* idea how an infection could have gotten in there, given your regime for looking after the wort, if there was an infection, and your container puffed up, the infection is in the container, and so it will also be in your starter.

When your container puffed up, did you have a smell of the gas inside it (there was gas inside it, right?)? You should. Did it smell like CO2 or something else. This could give you a clue as to the type of infection.

For the starter, as I said, I reckon any infection will be in there as well. So if you chucked out our main wort without smelling or tasting it (wheres the slap-on-the-wrist emoticon?). Give your starter a smell now. If it smells fine, keep it sanitary and leave it for a week or two, and wach for any signs of infection, give it a smell etc. Do this at the same temp as your wort was.

If you wanage to get through a couple of weeks with no obvious problems with the starter then my best bet is that you did not have an infection in the first place, but I can't explain why the wort container puffed up.

Apologies for the excessive length, but thinking out loud here.

Berp.

 

[hughman666]

You mentioned you managed to get 3 litres for the starter. That sounds like a lot to bleed off from a 20 litre container, without having air being sucked into the container. Did you squeeze the container to get the wort out?

i only drew off approx 1 litre, it is the starter container that is 3 litres.

i'm sure it is something to do with the cube as there is no other place for the brew to have become infected. it's the only place it went straight from the boil....

 

[Stuster]

I'd say keep the yeast. Give it a taste and smell first, but my guess is that it'll be fine.

It seems very strange that you got an infection in fact. Your procedure sounds fine. Hopefully the new cube/tube will sort it out.

 

[PostModern]

hugh,
No Chill has been proven to work this way:

Run wort into cube.
Seal cube.
Ensure all parts of the cube come into contact with hot wort.
Leave cube sealed until use.

If you want some wort for a starter, run it straight from the kettle after you've filled the cube, don't siphon or tap the cube. In fact, I don't even have tap on any of my hot wort cubes, it's just another place for microbes to lurk, and potentially for air to enter the cube as the wort chills and the pressure reduces. Best is an undrilled cube, but drilled and bunged are OK so long as you are meticulous with sanitation.

I apologise for my tone in my previous post. I was incredulous that you'd gotten all the advice in this thread then went and opened the cube to draw off your starter. No Chill only works when the wort is packed at or above pasteurisation temps then left hermatically sealed until you put millions of yeast cells into the wort at pitching temp. The yeast cells will fight off or overwhelm any stray bacteria or wild yeast by shear force of numbers. Wort below 80 is prone to infection. I'm surprised that infection is taking hold so quickly in your case, tho.

I recommend you chuck the cube, start with a new one or a freshly emptied, cleaned and sanitised commercial wort pack. Iodophor or another no-rinse sanitiser is best. You'd be amazed at how much lives in tap water. Wort has no immune system until there is yeast in there.

 

[Stuster]

I don't even have tap on any of my hot wort cubes.

Iodophor or another no-rinse sanitiser is best.

:super: :super:

Ditto to both of those. There's no need for taps on hot wort cubes so I'd rather not do the work of cleaning and sanitising them.

 

[hughman666]

hugh,
No Chill has been proven to work this way:

Run wort into cube.
Seal cube.
Ensure all parts of the cube come into contact with hot wort.
Leave cube sealed until use.

If you want some wort for a starter, run it straight from the kettle after you've filled the cube, don't siphon or tap the cube. In fact, I don't even have tap on any of my hot wort cubes, it's just another place for microbes to lurk, and potentially for air to enter the cube as the wort chills and the pressure reduces. Best is an undrilled cube, but drilled and bunged are OK so long as you are meticulous with sanitation.

I apologise for my tone in my previous post. I was incredulous that you'd gotten all the advice in this thread then went and opened the cube to draw off your starter. No Chill only works when the wort is packed at or above pasteurisation temps then left hermatically sealed until you put millions of yeast cells into the wort at pitching temp. The yeast cells will fight off or overwhelm any stray bacteria or wild yeast by shear force of numbers. Wort below 80 is prone to infection. I'm surprised that infection is taking hold so quickly in your case, tho.

I recommend you chuck the cube, start with a new one or a freshly emptied, cleaned and sanitised commercial wort pack. Iodophor or another no-rinse sanitiser is best. You'd be amazed at how much lives in tap water. Wort has no immune system until there is yeast in there.

thanks for the posts guys. im going to give it another crack this week but will try a new cube and hose.

will let you all know how it goes.

 

[PostModern]

...and don't open it until you're ready to pitch!

Some people get hung up on the air thing. If you look back in this thread where we were discussing HDPE leaching plasticisers and all that, you'll see a pic of one of my brews in too small a cube. I rolled that one upside down as soon as I sealed it, to ensure every surface was in contact with hot wort. That beer came out perfectly, so don't spend a lot of time squeezing all the air out. Just make sure the top of the pack comes into contact with the wort for a few minutes while it's really really hot. Especially the lid, as it'll have been handled and put down somewhere while you're filling the cube.

Good luck, dude. It works, have faith.

 

[berapnopod]

OK, my post was too long I admit. I will just ask the important questions here:

Did you smell the gas in your puffed up container?

Did you smell the starter?

What did they smell like?

Berp.

 

[hughman666]

OK, my post was too long I admit. I will just ask the important questions here:

Did you smell the gas in your puffed up container?

Did you smell the starter?

What did they smell like?

Berp.

the gass smelled like vegemite

the starter smells ok at this stage but it still in the fridge

 

[berapnopod]

the gass smelled like vegemite

the starter smells ok at this stage but it still in the fridge

Vegemite is usually the sign of yeast autolysis (dead yeast). But I am guessing some yukky smell like this is indeed an infection, just no idea how it got in there.

In which case, follow the other AHBer suggestions of getting new equipment.

Good luck!

Berp.

 

[Darren]

Hughman,

Have you looked at the tap on your boiler? Great source of greeblies in there. Yes, heat resistant microbes can survive boiling temps. The tap never really gets to boiling.

Out of curiosity, did you use Goldings hops in your brew?

cheers

Darren

 

[warrenlw63]

I reckon any of you blokes who stick taps on the hot cubes are asking for an accident. Would be too easy to knock them off and burn yourselves.

I fill my cubes to the top, pull the hose out to displace the volume then fill the remaining volume with just the edge of the hose until the boiling wort overflows from the cube "just". Don't bother squeezing then (ouch hot ) and just put the lid on and tighten like buggery. Then I clean the spilled wort off by pouring a jug of iodophor over it and cleaning down with a wet rag on the rest of the cube. Then I put it on it's side and turn it every 15 minutes to pasteurise the lot. After an hour I just stand the thing up to cool.

For those who experience a lot of break material. I run mine through a hopback on the way. Seems to filter heaps of muck and very little break when the wort cools. Even when I don't use the hopback I don't seem to get a lot. I just up my batch size slightly to compensate. I usually toss out around 3 litres of wort once it's all in the fermenters.

Edit: Forgot to add. Once the wort is transferred to fermenters I fill the cubes with hot tap water and add 3 teaspoons of Napisan to each one. On brewday I add 5ml of Iodophor to 5 litres of water and shake the crap out of the cubes. Then sit them on their sides in the same manner as when they've got hot wort and turn them every 15 mins. This gives maximum sanitiser contact with each side. Then tip them upside down to saturate the handle and lid.

I just think you can't be too careful with unpitched wort. Even if it's carefully hot-packed.

Warren -

 

[winkle]

Hughman,

Have you looked at the tap on your boiler? Great source of greeblies in there. Yes, heat resistant microbes can survive boiling temps. The tap never really gets to boiling.

Out of curiosity, did you use Goldings hops in your brew?

cheers

Darren

Just to chime in - check both the pickup tube and tap/ball valve on the kettle, you can get a build up of gunk in the treading. Also strip the tap off the cube if you've still got it - I had recurrent infections caused by some crud inside a tap on a fermenter.