Is My Brew Infected?

[berapnopod]

mmm a bolulism (sp) lambic, that may have a decent kick to it

A little bit off topic, but...

I have heard some heresay about botulism in wort, but nothing concrete.

Apparently wort pH is on the upper limit for inhibiting botulinum. Wort = 5.2, botulinum is stopped at 4.8.
Hops also suppress bacterial growth, and presumably will limit botulinum as well.

So it sounds like its right on the edge of being possible, but I would really like to see something more substantial on the issue.

But the thing I keep coming back to is, if botulism is possible in wort - especially given the current circumstances of this thread, then why isn't lambic beer associated with it? Either botulism lambic is a tautology or a myth.

Berp.

 

[Keifer]

from now on i will return to my 2 days bleach & 2 days napisan combo, as this seems to kill anything that may pose a threat.

Mate, 2 days sanitising is way too much. I clean my fermenters out immediatley after use with hot water and leave them till i use them next. One rinse with boiled water and then some iodophor spray, done in 5 mins. Haven't had one infection yet

Of course your just leaving them sitting so i guess it's only the time taken to actually fill/empty/rinse them which would not be too long? Hope they come up smelling of nothing what so ever after 2 days!

Cheers,
Keith

 

[berapnopod]

I doubt that there will be enough unique organisms to provide an authentic lambic character present, most probably only a few that survived the cleaning.

I'm curious as to why you think it must be fermented below 17C? Several lambic brewers have no temperature control, and their cellar spaces definately exceed this during the summer months.

Also, Gueuze is a blended beverage (usually of varying vintages), so he'd actually just end up with a unblended plambic like beer.

Re: fermentation temperature...
Its better to be on the cooler side for initial innoculation as it reduces bacterial activity, with respect to wild yeast activity. If inital temperature is too high, you end up with a balance of byproducts too heavily biased towards the phenolic.

Note that even in summer, nighttime temperatures, when innoculation occurs are not gonna get much higher than 17C in Belgium.

You're right about my incorrect use of gueuze. It would be a plambic.

As to your first comment about whether there would be enough gremlins to do a reasonable imitation of a lambic, I am not sure. I know a lot of people say that you can only get the right mix of wild yeasts and bacteria when in the right valley in Belgium, but I am not convinced. My intuition (read as unsubstantiated musing) is that if you have the right temp and method you can do this in Austrlalia. Hence my .sig which says I will one day brew a gueuze (now updated to a lambic - thanks).

Berp.

Edit: One thing I forgot to ask hughman666...
If you think its your sanitiser that was the problem, then I think you'd be doing the community a service by naming names.

 

[PostModern]

um, no because as i said, having done this numerous times, i have had no infection. i'm putting this down to a change in sanitizing product.

unless of course you're making the bold call that wort cannot be stored long-term at room temps?!

I'm a no-chiller myself. Currently have 2 cubes sitting at ambient for a couple of weeks. Many beers fermented and drunk after storage. No problem.

The bit I quoted seemed to imply that you ~transferred~ the wort into cube at room temperature after "no chilling" . That would be a possible cause of infection.

 

[redgums500]

I'm a no-chiller myself. Currently have 2 cubes sitting at ambient for a couple of weeks. Many beers fermented and drunk after storage. No problem.

The bit I quoted seemed to imply that you ~transferred~ the wort into cube at room temperature after "no chilling" . That would be a possible cause of infection.

Here Here Post Modern.

If you are going to No Chill use HOT WORT ! pronouced HOT repeat HOT wert !!!
If I was bacteria I would be loving that cube of yours Hughmann, no matter how much sanitiser you added before the wort arrived at room temp.

Cheers

Redgums

 

[hughman666]

The bit I quoted seemed to imply that you ~transferred~ the wort into cube at room temperature after "no chilling" . That would be a possible cause of infection.

i typically transfer to cube after ~ 24 hrs of no-chilling to filter out any remaining trub. this is usually at around the 22-26c range and it sits there for anything from 7 - 30 days before bringing down to pitching temps.

for the record, the offending sanitizer was a sodium bimetasulphate solution.

bleach & napisan has always been foolproof and this fool will be returning to such a method from here on in.....

 

[Stuster]

Personally, I just don't think you need to be doing that step. Just leave it in the first cube and avoid the high risk of infection when transferring more or less room temp unfermented wort. I'm a no-chiller by the by. Are you finding too much trub getting into the cube? Whirlpooling can be helpful to avoid this if it is. Even if you get trub in the primary, this is not really a big issue IMO.

 

[Adamt]

I'm just querying transferring cold wort to a new, sanitised cube, and the quoted risks involved in this. Is this a direct result of sanitation not killing everything, allowing nasties to stay in there to attack the vulnerable cool wort?

I'm assuming by racking hot wort, the heat will effectively "pasteurise" anything left in the cube? If so, isn't it possible to "pasteurise" with mega hot orthophosphoric solution for half an hour/an hour or so before transfer to completely eliminate this risk?

I currently no-chill by spraying the inside of the kettle and kettle lid with orthophosphoric solution after flameout, fit the lead and leave to cool. After cool, I typically transfer straight to fermenter and pitch within a few hours (temperature depending). I'm interested in this as I may in the future wish to store wort, I really dislike the thought of transferring nearly boiling hot wort and squeezing a nearly boiling hot plastic cube

 

[Ross]

Adam,

Exposing your sugar rich wort to the atmosphere is asking for trouble, it only needs the slightest contamination for it to get infected. If simply transferring to the fermenter for pitching your yeast, it's pretty safe, as the sheer numbers of viable yeast will overide most small infections. But transferring to another container for long term storage is a lottery, however well you sterilise the containers.

Cheers Ross

 

[Stuster]

Well, I guess if you can do an airless transfer you'll be fine.

The air is full of germs and nasties (Howard Hughes was right all along) which would love to snack on your wort. If you pitch some yeast, they will hopefully be outcompeted/killed off by the alcohol. If you just leave the wort in a cube after transferring it cold, they are just in there by themselves having fun at your expense. If you transfer hot, it is above the pasteurisation temperature and the majority (hopefully all) of the spoilers should be killed off before they can do any damage.

Transferring warm is pretty easy really. To get the air out of the cube, prop it against a step or something like that and squeeze. (use of a towel or something like that is recommended. )

 

[Stuster]

You again, Ross. :lol:

 

[Bobby]

i really think you are wasting your time filtering the trub off the NC

i have got to post some pictures of my beers, they have had all trub included and drop crystall clear and have no off flavours whatsoever. i brewed some lighter styles (pils and koelsche) on purpose to see if there were any off flavour that are supposedly caused by the inclusion of trub. Both were fine and clear as you like.

 

[Finite]

Ill just throw my experience in.

Im currently no chill but chilling is something I would like to do, for one thing it helps the trub drop out of suspension, is that right?

At the moment when its 90+ after whirlpool and irish moss + sit for 20min my trub is still very "floaty" for lack of a better word.

Anywho heres what I do at the moment, spray lid with no rinse and place on kettle at flame out to sanitize. Whirlpool, spray lid again and place on kettle. Wait 20min for trub to settle. I transfer into a sanitized jerry can which I put sanitizing solution in at the beginning of the brewday while im heating the stike water. Throught the brew day I give it a shake and tip and put it of a differnt side to sit everytime. I havnt been squeezing the air out but I will from now on, all my worts have been sucked IN when i get to them in the morning. No infection yet.

What does everyone think about attaching the racking hose to the tap of the jerry and underletting it into the jerry with the lid turned back a little to push the air out?

 

[PostModern]

Adam,

Exposing your sugar rich wort to the atmosphere is asking for trouble, it only needs the slightest contamination for it to get infected. If simply transferring to the fermenter for pitching your yeast, it's pretty safe, as the sheer numbers of viable yeast will overide most small infections. But transferring to another container for long term storage is a lottery, however well you sterilise the containers.

Cheers Ross

Absolutley. The proven method of no-chill is as Ross describes. Just rack it into a cube/jerry while at pastuerisation temps (86C ?? or higher), seal immediately with as little air as possible and just leave it there until pitching. You can leave the cold break in the jerry when you pour into your fermenter if that matters to you.

 

[Adamt]

Looks like I might change my ways and give hot transfer a crack!

I'm brewing for a mate next week so he can be my guinea pig

 

[Darren]

Is there any chance of leaching plasticisers out of the jerry at 85C + temps?

cheers

Darren

 

[PostModern]

Is there any chance of leaching plasticisers out of the jerry at 85C + temps?

cheers

Darren

Dunno. Can they be tasted? ESB, G&G, NNL and others have been doing this for years. Never noticed a "plastic" taste in any professional wort kit I've bought, nor in the 9 or 10 I've made myself. I use HDPE containers which are food grade. I believe they're non-leaching, although I've never asked that specific question.

 

[Darren]

Dunno. Can they be tasted? ESB, G&G, NNL and others have been doing this for years. Never noticed a "plastic" taste in any professional wort kit I've bought, nor in the 9 or 10 I've made myself. I use HDPE containers which are food grade. I believe they're non-leaching, although I've never asked that specific question.

The only reason I ask is because it appears everyone is effectively melting their jerry's. I suspect that this would release plasticisers (ie. you have just melted it). I dont know if they have a taste!

Do the commercial producers pour in at boiling?

cheers

Darren

 

[tangent]

that's EXACTLY the reason I've been worrried by the no-chill method Darren & PoMo.

Even more after doing my 1st no-chill after 35+ AG brews and was horrified to see the cube melting so much.
the beer still tastes good but i always thought the majority of plastics were not flash for humans at high temps.

edit - "Do the commercial producers pour in at boiling?" Commercial wort producers or commercial beer producers Darren?

 

[PostModern]

Do the commercial producers pour in at boiling?

I believe they do. Well, not at boiling, but in the 80's, after the whirlpool and settling.

If it is an issue, wouldn't all the plastic/electric brewers be suffering horribly by now? After all, they boil in HDPE for an hour or more. How about us plastic esky mashers? My esky's liner deforms at strike temp, so I imagine the zapap mashers' HDPE tuns and manifolds would also.

I'm no chemist, so all I have is anecdotal evidence to go on. I would genuinely be interested in seeing scientific articles about leaching plasticisers.