Is My Brew Infected?

[tangent]

If it is an issue, wouldn't all the plastic/electric brewers be suffering horribly by now?

The big C can take longer than that :blink: :huh:

 

[PostModern]

The big C can take longer than that :blink: :huh:

They've been brewing in plastic for decades in the States. Maybe the lack of reports is because they've never associated the tumors with their brewing techniques? I agree there is a potential risk there, but I'd like to see hard evidence first. I'm pretty sure that things like Nuttella, jams, canned fruit etc that come out in HDPE containers are hot packed. I wonder if the producers did any testing for plasticiser release at temperature?

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

HDPE can withstand long periods at 110*c

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_density_polyethylene

 

[PostModern]

HDPE can withstand long periods at 110*c

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_density_polyethylene

Nice find, Stu. If I wasn't brewing I would have looked at the old wikipedia myself. Although I generally trust it as a source of info, and in this case see no reason to doubt it, I like to see the article's sources (he says with a 85C wort freshly packed into HDPE).

 

[Adamt]

Found this post from back in 2005: Here. It suggests a continuous heat rating of 90C for HDPE.

Some notes from a uni course I studied with a section on polymers suggests a melting point of HDPE as 137C, unfortunately plasticisers werent covered in great detail.

Of course we can't be completely certain which sources are accurate, what is certain is there is a lot of differences (rigidity, density, plasticiser content, etc) in different branded HDPE containers.

I dont think melting plastic is very good at all, melting would free the plasticisers from between the polymer strands.

I guess it might be a good idea to maybe test jerry cans at 80-90C before no-chilling with them?

 

[PostModern]

Adamt, from the same thread you quoted:

The plasticiser used in most food safe plastic products is generally citric acid.

No chill is only looking better and better.

 

[Adamt]

Not too sure on the properties of the different plasticisers, I know they sit between the polymer strands to make the polymer more flexible.

I'd say melting plastic = freed plasticisers = not good.

 

[PostModern]

Deforming != melting.

 

[tangent]

It suggests a continuous heat rating of 90C for HDPE.

Does that mean the plastic can handle 100+C wort then? Is it suggesting that the plastic will survive or the person that drinks from it?

 

[PostModern]

Pretty sure that continuous heat rating means that the plastic will remain in tact, ie will not be leaching ~anything~ at that temperature. There was a post indicating that food grade HDPE uses citric acid as a plasticiser, so there is no health risk.

I bought my no-chill cubes from Cospak. I'll send them an email requesting information about the product.

 

[Adamt]

Depends on what we define as deformation:

Elastic deformation happens when you put liquid in the cube, squeeze it, whatever and is reversible.

Plastic deformation happens when the plastic changes shape (irreversibly). The mechanics involves parts of the polymer splitting, and reforming in a different shape, which could release plasticisers. i.e. effectively localised melting and setting. I'm assuming this is what tangent's cube did when he said it was "melting".

 

[PostModern]

Depends on what we define as deformation:

Elastic deformation happens when you put liquid in the cube, squeeze it, whatever and is reversible.

Plastic deformation happens when the plastic changes shape (irreversibly). The mechanics involves parts of the polymer splitting, and reforming in a different shape, which could release plasticisers. i.e. effectively localised melting and setting. I'm assuming this is what tangent's cube did when he said it was "melting".

I've got a few cubes that have had up to three hot worts go thru them. All of them are normal shape when returned to room temp. Even this one is normal shaped now:

 

[Adamt]

That cube would (based on my completely unverified logic) be fine for no-chill.

Quote from tangent: "Even more after doing my 1st no-chill after 35+ AG brews and was horrified to see the cube melting so much."

tangent: did your cube go back to normal shape? If not, it may have melted enough to release some plasticisers, that may have ended up in the wort, that may be detrimental to the flavour or health.

 

[tangent]

yep, where it wrinkled and buckled, has generally stayed that way.

just a note on heat ratings, interesting to note that when i bought my too expensive food grade heat proof transfer hose, it has a FDA seppo heat rating of 120C but a CONSTANT rating of 80C. good for a splash but not 40litres i think.

edit - lead water pipes did the Romans all right for a while, it was the offspring who suffered the most.

 

[redbeard]

2 things:

- my 20l blue rheem jerry has had hot 15l wort in it & squeezed such theres no headspace. when clean out with hot water it returned to normal shape. im guessing the temp of the wort was around 85-90c when filling the jerry.

- out of 15 or 20 no chill worts, ive had 1 that started puffing up. fortunately i was able to keg the current fermentor (dbl batching) & pitched onto the yeast cake & it turned out ok. it started puffing up on a really hot day (30c). the prev days were 20 or so. after cleaning, filled the jerry with a bleach solution & havent had the puffing repeat.

 

[hughman666]

ok quick update. i soaked the cube in bleach for a couple of days. used napisan for the cube overnight and then i did another brew on the weekend. belgian wit, and transferred it directly from the kettle to the cube 5 minutes after flameout. the cube buckled under the heat but i was able to get everything in with no headspace.

it sat in the jerry (with literally NO headspace) and left it on sunday to cool in the sink. got home this afternoon, puffed up like a rice bubble. straight down the sink.

i'm really over it now. 2 brews gone to waste. h34r:

 

[PostModern]

ok quick update. i soaked the cube in bleach for a couple of days. used napisan for the cube overnight and then i did another brew on the weekend. belgian wit, and transferred it directly from the kettle to the cube 5 minutes after flameout. the cube buckled under the heat but i was able to get everything in with no headspace.

it sat in the jerry (with literally NO headspace) and left it on sunday to cool in the sink. got home this afternoon, puffed up like a rice bubble. straight down the sink.

i'm really over it now. 2 brews gone to waste. h34r:

Chuck that cube and replace the hose from kettle to cube. What kind of hose do you use btw?

 

[tangent]

i use napisan as a cleaner but always use an orthophosphoric sanitiser

it sounds like the weak link might be "transfer"

edit - my thoughts exactly PoMo

 

[hughman666]

the hose from the kettle to cube is the standard NETA tubing you get from bunnings. i always sanitize this along with the fermenters (ie soak it in the fermenter while sanitising) and then run boiling water through it prior to use.

maybe it's the cube although soaked it in a strong bleach solution for 2 days and then gave it an overnight bath of napisan.

when i transferred the wort it was only 5 minutes off a rolling boil so i assumed this would kill any final nasties lurking....

for the record, this is a far greater step than i normally go to....

 

[Kai]

i typically transfer to cube after ~ 24 hrs of no-chilling to filter out any remaining trub. this is usually at around the 22-26c range and it sits there for anything from 7 - 30 days before bringing down to pitching temps.

for the record, the offending sanitizer was a sodium bimetasulphate solution.

bleach & napisan has always been foolproof and this fool will be returning to such a method from here on in.....

Your problem has come from a combination of your choice of sanitiser and your chilling / storage methods.