Introducing Brewton

[Edak]

Well some progress has been made this week. I ended up throwing out the PID sample I had downloaded. WAY too complicated when trying to learn things. I ended up writing my own PID library using the C# sample and various online tutorials. Still dialling in the various factors, but I think I am starting to get a handle on it.

Below is a screenshot of the Windows application. You can't actually see the "setpoint value" (target temp) line in the graph as it is covered by the "process value" (current temp. And yes I have already fixed the typo). I will be doing some ramping tests tomorrow night to see how it reacts when rampaging up to the target temp as I have been currently testing small ramping from 55 to 65 or 60 to 65. I am currently providing constant power until the process value is 85% of the target temperature and then switching over to using the PID algorithm to control the intermittent shots of power on the heating element. All this "tuning" I a doing will be useless as it will all need to be done once I move into the full vessel.

I'll put up a screenshot of the ramping tests tomorrow night.

I'm also going to have to pick up a calibrated thermometer somewhere. The digital one I have reads about 4 degrees higher than the temp probe I am using in the system so not quite sure which one is correct.

So have you obtained the heating element for your main vessel yet? For the same size and almost the same build I bought a 2400W element from thermal products. I haven't tested it yet, but it is mow finally mounted in my pot. I am so close to running my set up through a test, I just need to fit the LCD and buttons into my electronics box then I can get the heating/programming right, then worry (again) about my filter plates.

It's so much fun building this stuff, when it's complete I hope it was worth the effort works because it certainly looks awesome.

 

[angus_grant]

Nahh, haven't ordered element for main vessel.

I have ordered a normal 2400W element for my second Big W pot to mess around with larger scale temp control, and may try and grab some used grain to simulate the affect grain will have on temp control.

Did you order a custom bent one which wraps around the inner vessel? I think this is going to be the big expense of the system, unless I have to replace the cheap Handy Imports SS pot I am using for the main vessel.

Yep, I am enjoying the process although my wife just rolls her eyes when I bury myself behind the papers, wires, and boxes. Stealing the kettle from the kitchen to test the temp processes isn't really appreciated either. he he...

Looking forward to getting some actual building done. It has mainly being electronics so far, but it doesn't really look that impressive. Just a few wires and a box...

 

[insane_rosenberg]

I have plans to read the recipes into the controlling programme to set up hop addition alarms, mashing schedules, etc, etc. I think this may rule BrewMate (although I haven't tried the latest version) out as they don't have an XML export, just a plain text. I can always munge through a text file I suppose, but XML would be easier.

You're correct: BrewMate does not have XML export. They don't need that feature as their default save file is Beer XML.

 

[angus_grant]

yeh, I was having a look last night to see if there was an update and their feature list stated Beer XML save format. Bonus.

So looks like I'll be using Beer Mate for my recipes. Should be able to read in the XML into my app and build a "brew day" schedule on the fly direct from the recipe. Saweet!!

 

[Edak]

I like the idea of import from xml, I might do something over a serial connection.

Angus, I ordered the H03797 (2280mm 2400w 240v) bendable element and asked that they bend it for me using my BigW malt pipe as a template. After I described how I wanted it to be bent - and after they stopped laughing (literally) - they actually did bend it for me. They would not let me go into their workshop but they did a reasonable job in the end even if not entirely to my design I was able to work with it and they made it VERY low profile (pics to come). It cost me about $135 and was almost ready to fit with a little persuasion here and there.

I can't wait to test the system (even if without the grain and filter plates) this weekend.

 

[matho]

Well some progress has been made this week. I ended up throwing out the PID sample I had downloaded. WAY too complicated when trying to learn things. I ended up writing my own PID library using the C# sample and various online tutorials. Still dialling in the various factors, but I think I am starting to get a handle on it.

Below is a screenshot of the Windows application. You can't actually see the "setpoint value" (target temp) line in the graph as it is covered by the "process value" (current temp. And yes I have already fixed the typo). I will be doing some ramping tests tomorrow night to see how it reacts when rampaging up to the target temp as I have been currently testing small ramping from 55 to 65 or 60 to 65. I am currently providing constant power until the process value is 85% of the target temperature and then switching over to using the PID algorithm to control the intermittent shots of power on the heating element. All this "tuning" I a doing will be useless as it will all need to be done once I move into the full vessel.

I'll put up a screenshot of the ramping tests tomorrow night.

I'm also going to have to pick up a calibrated thermometer somewhere. The digital one I have reads about 4 degrees higher than the temp probe I am using in the system so not quite sure which one is correct.

Looks good Angus, thanks for posting

I like the idea of import from xml, I might do something over a serial connection.

Angus, I ordered the H03797 (2280mm 2400w 240v) bendable element and asked that they bend it for me using my BigW malt pipe as a template. After I described how I wanted it to be bent - and after they stopped laughing (literally) - they actually did bend it for me. They would not let me go into their workshop but they did a reasonable job in the end even if not entirely to my design I was able to work with it and they made it VERY low profile (pics to come). It cost me about $135 and was almost ready to fit with a little persuasion here and there.

I can't wait to test the system (even if without the grain and filter plates) this weekend.

hey Edak, I'm really keen on seeing your setup please post pictures soon

cheers steve

 

[Edak]

Looks good Angus, thanks for posting



hey Edak, I'm really keen on seeing your setup please post pictures soon

cheers steve

Will post them in the braumiser thread hopefully this weekend.

 

[angus_grant]

Well, you can over-capatilise.

I have taken a break from the electronics and computer side of the build and moved onto the sparge water heater. It will also double as my boil prototype system for extract brewing whilst I am am building up the main vessel. reading beer.xml files, count-down timer, addition alarms, etc, etc.

Anyways, onto the pics.

A shot of the side.Ball valve plus cam-locks at the front, thermowell at the rear and 2400W heating element.

A shot of the inside of the pot. Yes, I ended up getting some tools and rotating the heating element slightly so it was properly vertical.

A shot of the 3-piece ball valve plus cam-locks. Worth more than the entire Big W pot. ha ha

A shot of the rear of the pot. I still haven't decided where I am going to put the earth point. I am thinking of using the thermowell as an earthing point for the device. I still have to build up a waterproof box to house the wiring for the heating element and electrical plugs.

I don't know if you can get 1/2" ring terminals to earth out on the thermowell. Any other suggestions on how to earth the pot?

 

[dent]

I'd just drill a hole in the pot nearby and use a stainless bolt to attach a lug to the outside. The bolt will seal nicely, and you know it will be a solid connection.

 

[Maheel]

what if you soldered a lug / brass thread to the element (brass looking bit) or solder the wire direct to it

not sure if you would get enough heat into it with a hand held iron but and i would be reluctant to use a torch....
old school large copper head iron would do it

or you could make a copper sheet "washer" for outside the element and earth into that
I might make one for myself as i had the same issue...

 

[Tex083]

QldKev had some good info/pics of his setup. He used a metal Jiffy box and earthed that to the pot and element.
Something like http://theelectricbrewery.com/heating-elements?page=3

Im in the same boat, still looking for a soluition.

 

[angus_grant]

yeh, I have read Kev's thread, but he tapped the earth screw through the bottom of his keg and doesn't use a pot like me. I would like to avoid yet another hole in the pot for the earth screw. I am wondering if I can drill a tiny hole through the heating element boss and put a small earth screw in there. This would be inside the waterproof box.

This may be a silly question but does a 240V earth need to be a specific size? Would a tiny screw just melt out if it was used to earth the entire vessel?

After doing some reading (most particularly the electric brewery site) I will probably end up using a metal box to provide ease of earthing. From what I can tell from their site though, it doesn't look like the main pot is earthed. The screw goes into the metal box. The silicon seal would insulate the box from the pot, wouldn't it? Does the element not require earthing inside the pot?

Plus using a plastic box like I have used to house the relays and electronics may end up melting if attached to this pot as I will be boiling some extract brews in it whilst building up the main vessel.

 

[Edak]

I don't think that a tiny screw would melt out given that you are using an RCD (safety switch) which would turn off that power in a poofteenth of a second.

I had my friend weld lugs onto the base of my hbBM set up, to which I attached the motor. I later found that the motor is earthed through those metal screw points and thus the base is earthed, which is securely attached to the brew-pot, which is now earthed..

I will be using my home-made sous-vide as my sparge water vessel, instead of plumbing I will just take one scoop of water out at a time to pour through (rinse) the grain. It's also a way to keep the wife happy seeing as building it was "for her".

 

[angus_grant]

Cool, sounds good. Off to Jaycar sometime this week to grab the metal box and start on the wiring of the sparge vessel/extract boiler. I'm getting somewhere slowly. ha ha..

Did a little bit of work on the boil software last night. Worked out some methods to provide count-down timers and coded those up. I think this weeks efforts will be to produce code to interpret beer.xml files and publish addition events into a grid on the form. Will need to integrate count-down timer results into the grid so I know how long until each addition. The main label on the form will be the next event.

No screen shots as it is very empty at the moment (textbox for boil time, button to start timer, and count-down label, and an empty grid)

 

[angus_grant]

After doing some reading (most particularly the electric brewery site) I will probably end up using a metal box to provide ease of earthing. From what I can tell from their site though, it doesn't look like the main pot is earthed. The screw goes into the metal box. The silicon seal would insulate the box from the pot, wouldn't it? Does the element not require earthing inside the pot?

And I did some more thinking on this: the element would earth out my pot as there is the 1/2" nut on the inside of the pot which would earth out the element to the pot, and it would be earthed inside the metal box with the element and boss contacting the metal box.

Problem solved. Thanks chaps...

 

[QldKev]

yeh, I have read Kev's thread, but he tapped the earth screw through the bottom of his keg and doesn't use a pot like me. I would like to avoid yet another hole in the pot for the earth screw. I am wondering if I can drill a tiny hole through the heating element boss and put a small earth screw in there. This would be inside the waterproof box.

This may be a silly question but does a 240V earth need to be a specific size? Would a tiny screw just melt out if it was used to earth the entire vessel?

After doing some reading (most particularly the electric brewery site) I will probably end up using a metal box to provide ease of earthing. From what I can tell from their site though, it doesn't look like the main pot is earthed. The screw goes into the metal box. The silicon seal would insulate the box from the pot, wouldn't it? Does the element not require earthing inside the pot?

Plus using a plastic box like I have used to house the relays and electronics may end up melting if attached to this pot as I will be boiling some extract brews in it whilst building up the main vessel.

On my kettle, I'm running 3 elements all of which the diecast enclosures are held into place using the thread of the element. No extra holes are needed in the pot for either the mounting of the diecast enclosure or for an earth. The earth is picked up in the enclosure which is in contact to the kettle / element / water.

Hopefully this pic clears it up.



I would not trust a poor earth pickup, if it fails then you can become the earth circuit. A good solid nut and bolt are used on all of mine. The diecast enclosure has a clean path for the current as it directly contacts the element, which is also in contact with the water. I would only ever use the silicone seal on the inside of the pot, so the outside of the element is in contact with the pot.

QldKev

 

[angus_grant]

Thanks for the clarification Kev. It must have been another build that had the earth bolt tapped into the bottom of the keg.

I think at the moment that the seal for my element is on the outside of the pot and is sealing. I'll need to make sure having the silicon seal on the inside will still provide a good leak-proof seal.

From looking at your mounting system, I'll basically rip it off. Has a lot of the features that I was looking to do: run cable directly inside box through water-proof entry point to help with water-proofing, heavy duty wiring, etc, etc.

 

[angus_grant]

Picked up the metal box enclosure from Jaycar. The guy looked a bit peeved when I walked in the door at 5:25. ha ha. But in and out by 5:28.

I did some more work on the boil controller software. I will do a few extract brews whilst finishing off the main vessel to work out the bugs. Controller will fire the heating element to boil the water and once boiling I can add the extract and initial bittering hops. The software has a main boil count-down timer, and then in the grid has a list of fermentables and a list of hops. The hop line items have a separate count-down timer for when they are supposed to be added. Once the hops gets inside 10 minutes the line goes red. At 3 minutes before each addition an alarm goes off to warm me that something needs doing. I am contemplating deleting the line item once added as this will clean up the grid.

Oh, and all the details are imported straight from BrewMate's beer.xml files. So just build recipe in BrewMate, get IBUs right, OG, etc, etc and then load recipe file into boil controller. No double entry. Saweet. My favourite part of the software so far.

Anyways, a picture is worth a thousand words.

 

[angus_grant]

Well, the boiling software was given its first use last night. I boiled up an extract batch of gluten-free Oz Pale Ale pilsener beer-type stuff for my sister. The count-down software worked flawlessly and everything went to plan. About the only tweak I will do is to change the count-down times in the grid to count the seconds down once they get inside a minute.

For my next batch I will hook up the laptop to the USB data acquisition device, and plug the boiling pot into the control box to test out this part of the set-up. That way I can log some temps, ramping time, etc, etc. For this batch I just plugged the boiler straight into the wall and used the software as nothing more than count-down timers.

I will really need to look into some proper (looking) heat-proofing. I borrowed two silicon pads from the kitchen (I even asked the wife before I took them - I'm learning) to insulate the bottom of the pot, and wrapped my general purpose "brewery" towel around the pot to insulate the sides. Not all that professional looking. I will probably look at Clark Rubber for a solution as most people seem to have had good results with their products.

Got quite a nice strong boil going once I used the pads and towel. The boil the other night was fairly weak. I felt the table afterwards and it was toasty warm, so figured I would have to use some form of insulation. The table was still a little bit warm with the pads. I am using a 2400W Thermal Products straight heating element. All heavy duty cabling in the box and to the wall. Cables all felt perfectly normal although it was about 9 degrees last night so that would have helped out a fair bit.

Dodgy phone photo:

So the boil software proves to be successful. I am pondering the idea of releasing the software so people on here can use it for brew timers. Given that it can extract all the details from beer.xml files straight into the grid, hop amounts, times, adjuncts, etc, etc it may be useful to people instead of typing it twice, or just using a kitchen timer and pieces of paper next to the hop additions. It would be a Microsoft Windows only application and would mean you would need a pc near your brewing station though. Or plug some loud speakers into the your pc? Anyone interested?

 

[angus_grant]

Just realised I didn't post up any photos of the heating element box and wiring that I have completed. I did exactly the same as Kev's design from above. Seal on the inside, box sealed on the outside, earth point with beefy big bolt into the side of the metal box. You can see the bolt head on the outside of the right-hand side of the box.

I used a heavy duty 10A extension cord which I only just cut the plug off, so have 4 metres of cable. I will certainly cut this down when I have moved further along the design process for the over-all system, but at this stage I like the flexibility of the length.