Improving My Efficiancy

[[email protected]]

I do things a bit ass end about. I haven't read nearly enough about brewing and often think of an idea through first prinicples to only discover that it's a well established practice I don't do.

Anyway I just had an idea which I believe is going to fall into this catagory.

Right now I brew allgrain in an insulatted bucket mash tun with a false bottom. My current practice is to mash at between 62 and 68, then run the mash right through to the kettle, and add the sparge water to heat the mash up to between 75 and 80, then sparge this through to the beer (and sometimes a 3rd sparge of 5l or so to make a bit extra).

It just occurred to me this is a fairly hopelessly inefficiant method. In simplistic terms, the purpose at having it at 65ish is to convert the sugars, the purpose of having it at 75 is to extract the most sugars possible.

So its a bit pointless doing the first run through at 65C. My idea was to take enough of the first run out after mashing, heat it up to boiling and then re add it to the mash so that both sparges are at 75ishC and extract way more sugar.

I'm guessing this is pretty standard practice and I've really just been a fool for not doing this.

And I was hoping for some varifacation of the calculations I'm doing.

If I have about 20kg (5 grain 15 water) of water and grain in the mash at 65C. If I take 6L of this out, heat it to boiling and re add it to the mash, the new mash temperature will be (65 x 14 + 100 x 6)/ 20 = 75.5.

Is this about right? I know the thermic properties of grain and water are different and this will make the calculations a bit off, bit this seems the simplist way to calculate a rough estimate.

 

[manticle]

I don't use beersmith but I believe it allows the calculation of mash out water (essentially what it sounds like you are doing is a decoction mashout).

There's also the grain and grape strike temp calculator which can be tweaked to work out any step mash additions, including mashout. Scroll down on this page: http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/articles_o..._StrikeTemp.htm

Another way you can do it is simply to add more hot water. If you calculate your tun losses and grain absorption losses and make that up with water of the correct temp to hit target temp it can help brewdays.

A lot of people don't mashout though (first runnings straight to kettle, then sparge) so I'm not sure that's the cause of any efficiency problems you may be having.

 

[[email protected]]

I don't use beersmith but I believe it allows the calculation of mash out water (essentially what it sounds like you are doing is a decoction mashout).

There's also the grain and grape strike temp calculator which can be tweaked to work out any step mash additions, including mashout. Scroll down on this page: http://www.grainandgrape.com.au/articles_o..._StrikeTemp.htm

Another way you can do it is simply to add more hot water. If you calculate your tun losses and grain absorption losses and make that up with water of the correct temp to hit target temp it can help brewdays.

A lot of people don't mashout though (first runnings straight to kettle, then sparge) so I'm not sure that's the cause of any efficiency problems you may be having.

Last time I calculated my efficientcy it was 67% so not terribly bad but a lot of room for improvement.

Anyway brewing today, so I'll see how well this method works, i don't think it's going to be that difficult. I guess the one thing to be careful is mix the boiling wort through the mash as I pour so that i don't make hot patches and extract tannins.

 

[felten]

if it was going to extract tannins, it would happen when you boil the decoction

 

[[email protected]]

if it was going to extract tannins, it would happen when you boil the decoction

No it wont, because I'll run the decoction through the false bottom so there's no grain parts in it . If tannins wern't a problem I may as well sparge at 95C

 

[amiddler]

Paxxy

The way I read your first post your thinking that heat alone extracts more sugar. From what I have read while the hotter the wort the easier it will lauter, heating to 75'C is more to stop any enzyme action and stop converting starch to sugar.

By tipping heated wort back into the mash it will raise the temp to mash out, 75'C, but wont necessarily increase efficiency as this will stop the enzyme action. You will pick up some efficiency by rinsing (sparging) the grain with hot (75-80'C) water.

If your looking for more efficiency start by looking at your grain crush, can you crush finer without struggling with stuck sparges. Crushing slightly finer increased my efficiency from just below 70% to closer to 75%.

Drew

 

[Bribie G]

If your kettle is big enough maybe invest $8 at Spotlight for some voile and try a BIAB brew with a finer crush, as a one off to "calibrate" against your existing system. As a BIAB'er I've been hitting 75 - 80 recently since I got my Mill. Also if you are into adjuncts such as Polenta or even flour (Coopers style sparklies) you won't get a stuck sparge, and can still do stepped mashes / mashout with BIAB.

 

[[email protected]]

Paxxy

The way I read your first post your thinking that heat alone extracts more sugar. From what I have read while the hotter the wort the easier it will lauter, heating to 75'C is more to stop any enzyme action and stop converting starch to sugar.

By tipping heated wort back into the mash it will raise the temp to mash out, 75'C, but wont necessarily increase efficiency as this will stop the enzyme action. You will pick up some efficiency by rinsing (sparging) the grain with hot (75-80'C) water.

If your looking for more efficiency start by looking at your grain crush, can you crush finer without struggling with stuck sparges. Crushing slightly finer increased my efficiency from just below 70% to closer to 75%.

Drew

Heat plays a big part, if my understandings correct. Try to mix sugar into a cup of cold water compared to boiling water, see which you can get more sugar into. As the heat of the water rises, the sugar saturation of the water increases. Raising the heat for the sparge is not really necesarry to stop enzyme action, because its going to stop when you start heating it in the kettle anyway. Anyway enzyme conversion should be 100% in every mash. An hour at 65C will remove all starch from the grain (You can confirm this with a starch test very easily). The enzymes have realistically stopped most of their activity after 10mins of mashing.

The reason you sparge at a greater temperature then mashing is mainly to get as high sugar extraction as possible. The mashed grain is essentially sugar stuck in the grain and you want to wash as much of that sugar out as possible without extracting nasty tannins. A quick google found this graph showing how much sugar can be extracted into solution at diff temps. Note there's a 13% increase in sugar absorption at 75 compared to 65 and 20% at 80

 

[felten]

No it wont, because I'll run the decoction through the false bottom so there's no grain parts in it . If tannins wern't a problem I may as well sparge at 95C

Fair enough, though traditionally decoctions contain a portion of the grain as well, and are boiled without tannin issues.

 

[Bribie G]

I was under the impression that tannin extraction is a pH thing, which is why fly spargers have to stop sparging at a certain stage as the pH rises towards the end of the sparge, as the grains lose their protective 'buffer' of wort and become exposed to the pure water.

 

[Nick JD]

My gay yellow rubber gloves sparge GOOD.

 

[Crusty]

I do things a bit ass end about. I haven't read nearly enough about brewing and often think of an idea through first prinicples to only discover that it's a well established practice I don't do.

Anyway I just had an idea which I believe is going to fall into this catagory.

Right now I brew allgrain in an insulatted bucket mash tun with a false bottom. My current practice is to mash at between 62 and 68, then run the mash right through to the kettle, and add the sparge water to heat the mash up to between 75 and 80, then sparge this through to the beer (and sometimes a 3rd sparge of 5l or so to make a bit extra).

It just occurred to me this is a fairly hopelessly inefficiant method. In simplistic terms, the purpose at having it at 65ish is to convert the sugars, the purpose of having it at 75 is to extract the most sugars possible.

So its a bit pointless doing the first run through at 65C. My idea was to take enough of the first run out after mashing, heat it up to boiling and then re add it to the mash so that both sparges are at 75ishC and extract way more sugar.

I'm guessing this is pretty standard practice and I've really just been a fool for not doing this.

And I was hoping for some varifacation of the calculations I'm doing.

If I have about 20kg (5 grain 15 water) of water and grain in the mash at 65C. If I take 6L of this out, heat it to boiling and re add it to the mash, the new mash temperature will be (65 x 14 + 100 x 6)/ 20 = 75.5.

Is this about right? I know the thermic properties of grain and water are different and this will make the calculations a bit off, bit this seems the simplist way to calculate a rough estimate.

I think your low efficiency may be a result of your grain crush more so than your process.
Before taking the Herms route, I mashed in @ 65deg & completely drained the mash tun to the kettle. I then heated up two equal amounts of sparge water & omitted a mash out as such. My efficiency went from low 70's to 80%+ doing the double sparge with no mash out.
As far as draining off some of your first runnings, heating it up & pouring it back over your grain, I don't think that's a good idea at all & I don't believe you will pick up any extra efficiency doing it that way. The sole purpose of draining your first runnings is to collect as much as possible of that sweet wort. Pouring that sweet wort back over the grain bed seems quite bizarre to me. Much better to pour fresh heated sparge water over the grain.
Simply adjust your crush slightly finer, mash in as normal, completely drain the mash tun & do your single or double batch sparge.
I think there is a simple answer to your dialemma & it may just be your grain crush.

Cheers

 

[warra48]

I fail to see how you can extract more sugars by rinsing with your first concentrated sugar run off wort. You add all your sugars back in, so you are back to square one.

This is what works for me, in my 25 litre mashtun:

Mash at desired temperature.
At end of mash period, add mash out water at about 90C, to fill mashtun to capacity. Mash will be at somewhere around 78C.
Stir, recirculate, and run off till drained.
Add sparge water at about 80 to 90C.
Stir, recirculate, and sparge till drained.
Do another sparge with the last few litres of water need to make up desired pre-boil volume.

I never get less than 90% mash efficiency doing it this way.
And, in case some think by doing two sparges I'll extract tannins, it's never happened in my 4 years of brewing.

 

[[email protected]]

I fail to see how you can extract more sugars by rinsing with your first concentrated sugar run off wort. You add all your sugars back in, so you are back to square one.

This is what works for me, in my 25 litre mashtun:

Mash at desired temperature.
At end of mash period, add mash out water at about 90C, to fill mashtun to capacity. Mash will be at somewhere around 78C.
Stir, recirculate, and run off till drained.
Add sparge water at about 80 to 90C.
Stir, recirculate, and sparge till drained.
Do another sparge with the last few litres of water need to make up desired pre-boil volume.

I never get less than 90% mash efficiency doing it this way.
And, in case some think by doing two sparges I'll extract tannins, it's never happened in my 4 years of brewing.

The problem with this is my mash tun is a very limited space. So there's no room to add water to heat the mash up without taking out wort. Rather then take wort out and add hot water, i may as well take wort out to heat up the mash, and absorb a little more sugar. Your right though if I had the space just adding mash out water should have exactly the same effect.

 

[Crusty]

The problem with this is my mash tun is a very limited space. So there's no room to add water to heat the mash up without taking out wort. Rather then take wort out and add hot water, i may as well take wort out to heat up the mash, and absorb a little more sugar. Your right though if I had the space just adding mash out water should have exactly the same effect.

Skip the mash out Paxxy.
Srike in with around 3l/kg grain if you have the space in your tun, completely drain the tun after the hour & do two equal volumes of sparge water. I'm positive you will pick up your efficiency. What crusher are you using for your grain crush? I think you need to tweak it a bit finer.

 

[[email protected]]

Skip the mash out Paxxy.
Srike in with around 3l/kg grain if you have the space in your tun, completely drain the tun after the hour & do two equal volumes of sparge water. I'm positive you will pick up your efficiency. What crusher are you using for your grain crush? I think you need to tweak it a bit finer.

My tun is 20L so just fits 5kg grain for a 20L batch with optimal water grain ratio. I've got a hand crank type mill, I will definately mill finer next time, see how this goes. Have never had probs with stuck mash so won't be a problem to have it ultra fine.

 

[Acasta]

Doing double sparges seems to have greatly improved eff for me also. I would recommend it before adding another painful step on brewday.
Without taking this off topic, is it possible to mash, drain and then use batch sparge water to do a kind of mashout by resting it for a bit? ie, to stop conversion.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Heating it up wont help much anyway - the heat does't "dissolve" the sugars... They are dissolved already, Almost by definition, the enzymes only work in solution, so the starch is in solution before and the sugars are in solution after. Heat just makes the liquid a little less viscous and makes the physical process of lautering easier, which allows your sparge to oerhaps be more effective - in a continuous sparge situation - in a batch sparge situation the only thing it will change is the speed at which you will be able to run off at before it sticks.

If you batch sparge, a number of people have done testing, and the optimum way to do it is to run off twice, with two equal volumes. You can run off more times, but the increase in efficiency is quite minimal and probably doesn't justify the extra effort. In your case with only a 20L tun, you might "need" to do three run offs for volume reasons - i needed to when i was using a 20L tun.

Do your mash, vorlauf - drain the first runnings into your kettle. Measure the volume in the kettle. The difference between what you got and your intended pre-boil volume is the amount you will sparge with.

Divide that amount by two - add that amount to your tun, stir it up thoroughly, vorlauf - drain
Then add the second half of the sparge water, stir, vorlauf, drain - done. Now you should have your desired pre-boil volume. You should be getting an into the kettle efficiency of at least 75% and probably hogher doing that.

If you add your sparge water at a bit higher than standard sparge temperature.... then the first addition will raise the whole mash temp and the second will raise it even higher, so you also get the increase in temperature you were looking for.

Mind you, it would essentially work just as well if you use water at mash temp, hot water from the tap, or even cold water from the tap

 

[Crusty]

Heating it up wont help much anyway - the heat does't "dissolve" the sugars... They are dissolved already, Almost by definition, the enzymes only work in solution, so the starch is in solution before and the sugars are in solution after. Heat just makes the liquid a little less viscous and makes the physical process of lautering easier, which allows your sparge to oerhaps be more effective - in a continuous sparge situation - in a batch sparge situation the only thing it will change is the speed at which you will be able to run off at before it sticks.

If you batch sparge, a number of people have done testing, and the optimum way to do it is to run off twice, with two equal volumes. You can run off more times, but the increase in efficiency is quite minimal and probably doesn't justify the extra effort. In your case with only a 20L tun, you might "need" to do three run offs for volume reasons - i needed to when i was using a 20L tun.

Do your mash, vorlauf - drain the first runnings into your kettle. Measure the volume in the kettle. The difference between what you got and your intended pre-boil volume is the amount you will sparge with.

Divide that amount by two - add that amount to your tun, stir it up thoroughly, vorlauf - drain
Then add the second half of the sparge water, stir, vorlauf, drain - done. Now you should have your desired pre-boil volume. You should be getting an into the kettle efficiency of at least 75% and probably hogher doing that.

If you add your sparge water at a bit higher than standard sparge temperature.... then the first addition will raise the whole mash temp and the second will raise it even higher, so you also get the increase in temperature you were looking for.

Mind you, it would essentially work just as well if you use water at mash temp, hot water from the tap, or even cold water from the tap

+1

Double batch sparge is excellent, give it a try Paxxy. As TB ponted out, you may need a third one to get your pre-boil volume.

 

[[email protected]]

Alright so I think I understand the mashing process a bit better now. The starch in the grain is converted to sugars which sits in the liquid held by the grain during mashing. No extra sugar is absorbed into solution through the sparging process. Sparging is a process of dilution of the liquid held by the grain after the first run out, and the temperature wont cause any more sugar to be absorbed. So the best option is to run the mash out at what ever temp it is and then wash the grain with two equal amounts to make up pre boil volume. The goal to reach best efficiency is to have the remaining liquid as dillute as possible.

I'm guessing that milling grain finer will mean that less liquid is held by the grain and you can get more of the more concentrated sugars out.

Thanks for all your imput.