Husky's 2.5BBL Collaboration Brewery Build - 3V 300L

[homebrewnewb]

Mash Tun some welding required.

 

[Adr_0]

Single phase VSDs can be had fairly cheaply and are also a viable alternative to a motor starter. My experience with them is limited but controlling speed remotely shouldn't be hard if you've got a graphical PLC frontend. In fact if you have the right control program you could even control it using feedback from a temp probe i.e. it will throttle flow to achieve a target temp through a chiller. With minimal head in a system like this a centrifugal pump will control well.

I think most of these have a diac-triac setup which needs a potentiometer/resistance adjustment over AC which may be hard with a controller. I believe DIAC's typically have a 30-35V bias before it will let current through to the TRIAC which will then conduct AC through the motor. The potentiometer takes voltage off the supply line to sense voltage, and depending on how the potentiometer is set it will either conduct through the triac almost straight away in the wave, or needs to get right up to the peak - so it will essentially either conduct a nearly full wave at a full potentiometer setting, or the back half of each half wave when the pot is set to zero. This is basically a 2:1 turndown.

An elaborate solution...
The potentiometer and diac are essentially the sensing part of the circuit. Given there's a PLC, on the sensing line you could use a bridge rectifier then a voltage divider network and with the resistor closest to supply ~4700R, then the tap off, then a 140R resistor to ground. This should scale -340V...+340V to 0...10V and will always be positive due to the bridge rectifier.

You can then use a compare block with this input compared (GEQ) to your controller output (reversed, so 100% is ~0V compare value and 0% is 7-10V), which then goes to a 5V digital output to the gate of a triac. You would need an RC snubber on the sensing line to the AI of the controller and around the triac.

This basically gives you 2:1 control which should be useful during heating - I think you want a lot of circulation here - and sparging, transfer etc can be a lower speed. You need to consider your snubber circuits as you'll get some switching noise, but it's apparently a fairly good way to control a pump.

Or a simple solution...
Is using an SSR. I think nearly all of them will only switch in half-wave chunks at the zero crossing point to avoid noise/arcing etc. Certainly the OMRON ones do but I'm sure they all do. If you consider there are 100 half waves in a second, that's still pretty good for control - and it provides isolation of 240V from your controller. You really just need to make sure your 'window' for the time proportional pulses is not less than 2 seconds, otherwise smaller outputs may not trigger the SSR at all. You can then have a 40-50% setting and a 100% setting based on what you're doing at the time.


Having done the recirculation from a kettle before, with a false bottom and a mesh screen, it's challenging to maintain flow - the screen will very quickly block. I considered a multi-screen (slightly sloped off vertical) box design to slow the flow down and settle out hops/trub but I couldn't be bothered in the end. I'm a bit skeptical about the Y-strainer unless it's a 2-3" version...

 

[husky]

Single phase VSDs aren't common but they are available, one example here: http://www.invertekdrives.com/variable-speed-drives/optidrive-e2-single-phase/

20mins for cast out is pretty standard timing, it allows the use of smaller HX and pumps. No point in thrashing things when you don't need to.

In your shoes I'd be looking to put some form of trub trap in the whirlpool rather than a filter in the cast out line. Commercial scale breweries don't need to, whirpool efficiency scales with diameter.

Nice one, did not know you could get a single phase motor VSD, banked for a future project.
Got any examples of trub traps that work? I'm pretty confident that with the diameter:height ratio I have made the kettle that WP will be pretty good. Perhaps just some stainless rings maybe 30mm high sitting on the base to prevent the debris being drawn into the outlet line when taking the last from the kettle?

What I do for hoppy beers is use an immersion chiller to knock the temp down to 70C in 5 minutes time. That gets the temp below isomerisation AND volatilisation temps for most hop oils. Might be worth thinking about such a thing. Might not be worth spending on it.

Also, in addition to what LC said, you're not going to get a crapload more isomerisation after a 60-90 minute boil. It's not a straight-line process. The majority of the isomerisation will have occurred at that point. Enough so that the additional amount could be estimated to an acceptable degree.

Maybe just easier to add a bit of chilled water jacket to the kettle to knock to 70 pretty quick. Lately 80% of my hops have been going into the WP then chilling to 80 in 3-5 mins and I like what I'm getting so ideally replicate that but bigger.

What's a manway cost? I know you're looking to do a slick commercial style system, but could you just use a chain hoist , davit arm, or other method to lift the MLT and tip it for quick emptying? I'm thinking of doing this in my own home 3v system so I can just dump it out hot and clean it straight away. MLT cleaning at the end of a brew day is my most hated chore.

Manway cost $500 plus the labour to install so approx. $800.
Could hoist or tip but neither is as easy as dragging it out a side door, the MT is a bit elevated too so the door will aid cleaning.
Originally I was going tipper but since I have 3 x heat belts, a temp transmitter and hard piped in/outlets it would be a real pain to disconnect all the time. To me 60kg grain warrants a door.

Mash Tun

Just as a comparison very tall, your probably looking at 750mm wide tun. How wide did you go on the kettle/whirlpool or what height width ratio did you go with.

MT DIA650x650H
KT DIA750x700H

Haven't seen that supplier, their prices make me fell better about what this will cost!

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Ignore this

 

[TheWiggman]

Sounds like a complete pain in the arse Adr_0, it irks me to say but I reckon a control valve with a 4-20mA positioner on the discharge would be the simplest method to control flow with a unit of this scale. I haven't dealt with them in the food industry but in mining and paper they haven't proven to be cheap (Keystone, Pentair, Tyco, Fischer, Eaton and Metso [shudder] come to mind). Though nor is a VSD and any associated control hardware.

 

[Adr_0]

Ignore this

Oh... ok.

Curious what your thoughts were on trub removal - I think the 30mm high rings would be good and should hopefully not disturb the whirlpool too much, but they will a little. Perforated mesh could even be used, then a final solid sheet weir if the bottom is sloped would be great - but I think a gentle draw-off would still be required.

Y-strainers often come with a tap/threaded fitting for draining inside the mesh screen. You could have a fairly big one on the suction with a drain to a collection pot, and a smaller one on the discharge with a similar drain. It's not a good idea to pull flow away from the suction but you might be able to do it over a couple of runs. The discharge - to protect the plate HX - should be fine to drain. Note that y-strainers need to be mounted horizontally as well.

 

[Adr_0]

Sounds like a complete pain in the arse Adr_0, it irks me to say but I reckon a control valve with a 4-20mA positioner on the discharge would be the simplest method to control flow with a unit of this scale. I haven't dealt with them in the food industry but in mining and paper they haven't proven to be cheap (Keystone, Pentair, Tyco, Fischer, Eaton and Metso [shudder] come to mind). Though nor is a VSD and any associated control hardware.

Yeah at homebrew scale I haven't really seen any that are appropriate - but you are 100% correct. It also provides better pump stability. Given Husky already has the PLC that's great, but I think even a small 3/4" control valve will be at least $1000-1500. Of course homebrewers are resourceful, so I'm sure there are cheaper versions out there.

I've been keen to get a proportional solenoid but have just ended up shaking my head and giving up.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

For Husky and ADR_0:

I can't help with trub traps: I've never worked in a brewery small enough for this to be an option, the one I made for home use turned out to be useless. I'm going to give a "Trub Trapper" a go on the next build.

 

[malt junkie]

something as simple as this, simple and removable. Yeah same bling site but if it works for them at double the scale.....

 

[droid]

what about some kind of rotating racking arm, set it for a high pick up and as the wort drops you'll be able to see where the best pozzy is and rotate as you see fit.

 

[Mardoo]

Maybe just easier to add a bit of chilled water jacket to the kettle to knock to 70 pretty quick. Lately 80% of my hops have been going into the WP then chilling to 80 in 3-5 mins and I like what I'm getting so ideally replicate that but bigger.

If you can do a jacket, that would be the way to go. You'd have to have a look at the fluid dynamics inside the jacket. I'm assuming the dimpled jackets are to develop and increase turbulence inside the jacket, but I haven't looked into that.

 

[knot_gillty]

All of this is flying well over my head but that looks bloody awesome husky!! Shiny bits and fire, what's not to like eh!!....

 

[husky]

Sounds like a complete pain in the arse Adr_0, it irks me to say but I reckon a control valve with a 4-20mA positioner on the discharge would be the simplest method to control flow with a unit of this scale. I haven't dealt with them in the food industry but in mining and paper they haven't proven to be cheap (Keystone, Pentair, Tyco, Fischer, Eaton and Metso [shudder] come to mind). Though nor is a VSD and any associated control hardware.

There is plenty of hygienic control valves around that I could use. For now it will ne manual adjustment of valves to get required temps. Thinking of running 2 x chillers a cold water pre chiller and a chilled water final chiller and just regulate the chilled water flow manually for now. This could easily be automated in future.

Oh... ok.

Curious what your thoughts were on trub removal - I think the 30mm high rings would be good and should hopefully not disturb the whirlpool too much, but they will a little. Perforated mesh could even be used, then a final solid sheet weir if the bottom is sloped would be great - but I think a gentle draw-off would still be required.

Y-strainers often come with a tap/threaded fitting for draining inside the mesh screen. You could have a fairly big one on the suction with a drain to a collection pot, and a smaller one on the discharge with a similar drain. It's not a good idea to pull flow away from the suction but you might be able to do it over a couple of runs. The discharge - to protect the plate HX - should be fine to drain. Note that y-strainers need to be mounted horizontally as well.

If the strainer doesn't work or blocks easily then can just take the insert out. Will see how it goes.

For Husky and ADR_0:

I can't help with trub traps: I've never worked in a brewery small enough for this to be an option, the one I made for home use turned out to be useless. I'm going to give a "Trub Trapper" a go on the next build.

Looks like it could be a goer. Might make one out of perforated sheet and see how it works.

what about some kind of rotating racking arm, set it for a high pick up and as the wort drops you'll be able to see where the best pozzy is and rotate as you see fit.

The inlet and outlet are rotatable so that's an option to try but need to be paying attention as if you miss it and suck air in could be a pain to re prime.

If you can do a jacket, that would be the way to go. You'd have to have a look at the fluid dynamics inside the jacket. I'm assuming the dimpled jackets are to develop and increase turbulence inside the jacket, but I haven't looked into that.

My 20L has a jacket and works well so might adapt one here down the track as an option. No fancy dimple plate just a second skin with some internal baffle rings to send the cooling water around the circumference twice then out.

 

[husky]

PLC ordered - Went the better model of the same family of PLC's on the 1V. This one has much more expandability so could be used to control all sorts of other brewery equipment in future projects(mill, chiller, fermenters etc)

Pumps ordered - Decided to order three pumps to allow the mash tun to recirculate while the kettle whirlpools if ever doing a back to back brew day to save time.

Only two big ticket items yet to decide on.
HMI - Pretty much set on a 7" widescreen panelview just need to come to terms with shelling out this much in 1 week....

Chillers - Looking for a pre cooler and a chiller. Blichman have not returned emails as I like the look of their pro series with tri clamp connections. Thinking I will just get some brazed exchangers off ebay and weld triclamps to the threaded ends. Does anyone know anyone who has used a larger brazed exchanger similar to:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-x12-Br...845561?hash=item25bc5a9f39:g:XBoAAOSwH71XOu7U
They don't mention food use but I assume copper brazed stainless exchangers would all be equivalent?

 

[Mardoo]

Pumps ordered - Decided to order three pumps to allow the mash tun to recirculate while the kettle whirlpools if ever doing a back to back brew day to save time.

Which pumps did you go with?

Also, have a look at the Duda Diesel exchangers. They have some good larger ones, and have a great reputation. Although, that's a great price on the one you posted.

 

[husky]

Which pumps did you go with?

Also, have a look at the Duda Diesel exchangers. They have some good larger ones, and have a great reputation. Although, that's a great price on the one you posted.

HLT - Chugger Stainless centre inlet CHUG-CPSS-CI-2
Mash - March 815-PL-C stainless
Kettle - Chugger MAX stainless nano CHUG-TCPSSMAX-CI (same as the March AC-5B-MD from what I can tell)

Will set them up all at the same height so I can rotate the big ******* kettle pump to mash duty and see if it' s required. My calcs show the march will easily do my mash recirc and future ramping though.
The nano pump has a proper motor so I'm hoping to find a 3 phase version put it on a VSD and run it up to 60 Hz if it needs more grunt.
All with stainless heads so I can cut the threads off and weld on triclovers. A bit painful hitting the go pedal on those yesterday, point of no return now.

 

[homebrewnewb]

my, what big balls you have.

 

[Nullnvoid]

That was the point of no return!! Wow

 

[husky]

That was the point of no return!! Wow

Yep, up to now could use everything for something else. Big pump and PLC I don't really have any other use for.

Side note: I did get some gasketed heat exchangers quoted from a couple of suppliers we use at work(Alfa Laval was one of them) cheapest was $4k so will be finding a couple of cheaper brazed units for this project.

 

[Nullnvoid]

Yeah totally understand, I dropped $40 on some extra kegging bits yesterday hahahah Ok, so maybe not quite the same.

Loving this thread by the way!