How long to wait for a yeast starter to kick in?

[hobospy]

First time brewing lager, first time using liquid yeast (WLP833) and first time making a yeast starter, possibly not the best combination. Anyway, I followed the instructions from the Basics of Making and Using a Yeast Starter (very good) but I was thinking something should have happened by now (approximately 8 hours after I kicked the starter off). Outline of what I did below, should I be worried or just give it a bit more time?

1. Sanitized everything in that weird pink stuff and rinsed
2. Took the vial of yeast out of the fridge (in date by a month and a half)
3. Put about 3.3l of water into my weird flask thing, chucked some tin foil over the top and put it on the ring to boil
4. Left it boiling for 15 minutes
5. Let it cool for about half an hour, then put it into the sink with running cold water, then and ice bath to bring the temp down (approx 3l of water left) and finally into the fridge with the STC monitoring it to bring it down to approximately 18⁰C
6. Measured off 600ml into a new sanitized container
7. Mixed in 60g of LME and then measured the SG (just over 1040) based off of the 100g/1litre ratio
8. Added a little extra water to the container to bring down the SG a little and brought total in container to 450ml
9. Shook the stuffing out of the vial until it was all mixed up and poured into the 450ml of water (approx 3hrs after I took the vial out of the fridge to get it close to the same temp, probably should have been a bit longer)
10. Covered in cling film
11. Chucked on stirrer and got mixing in the fridge

 

[Black n Tan]

what were you expecting to happen? With a stirplate you often don't have a krausen. I look for a change in colour as the yeast grow. It should be become more opaque and lighter and creamier looking as the yeast grow. From the photo that appears to be happening.

A couple of bits of advice:

1/ the starter size is too small for a lager. I would expect you would need about 2L. Did you use a yeast calculator? With an older pack of yeast you may need step starter because the yeast viability will be lower.
2/ next time add the DME to the water and then boil to ensure the wort is sanitised. Keep an eye out for boil overs.
3/ ditch the glad wrap. I cover my flask loosely with foil. You want good gas exchange and bacteria don't have legs or wings so you don't need an airtight seal.

 

[Yob]

As BnT mentioned above, may need a bigger starter to achieve the growth you require, whats the gravity of the lager you will pitch to?

 

[TheWiggman]

8h isn't long. Times vary but noticeable change can take 24h in some cases. And they don't always finish in 24h either, especially a lager. Give it 5 days to fully ferment out.
As above too. If you're really worried about krausen, turn off the stir plate and look at it closely. If it's fermenting you'll see small bubbles coming from the bottom (on a lager).

 

[hobospy]

Ahhh, it was the krausen I was looking out for, didn't know if the stirplate would break that up or not (thought I had seen pictures with the krausen in a flask on a stirplate).

I am going to step this up to just over 2l and hoping that is enough, planning to put it into a 15l Bock from a 3kg ESB can, bit worried that that won't be enough as it will probably have quite a high SG.

Will swap to foil when I get back tonight, thanks for the responses

 

[danestead]

Also, when you say you put it in the fridge, what temp is that fridge at? You want to do your starters at about 20 degrees if you will be letting the yeast settle out then decanting the liquid, or close to the temp you will be pitching at if you will be pouring the whole starter into your fermentor (about 10 degrees for a lager).

 

[hobospy]

In the fridge which is going between 18 and 18.5 at the moment, aim was to get the yeast growing at that temp, wait for it to ferment out and then lower the temperature closer to the pitch temperature, decant the liquid and only throw the slurry in.

 

[storeboughtcheeseburgers]

turn your stir plate down - looks like a rapid whirlpool.. then you'll get some krausen. I usually start with it on the lowest setting and ramp it a day later. You don't need massive stirs.



Don't forget to cold crash before pitching. I usually add some chilled boiled water (in a sanitised jug) to the yeast slurry once its cold crashed and decanted and leave it to familiarise with the room temp for a bit. I would step that starter up to at least a litre. Depends how big your beer is but.

Alfoil > glad wrap

 

[hobospy]

Thanks, stepped up the starter over the weekend and started the new batch off on a lower stir setting, looked at it this morning and looked heaps better with a krausen and visible bubbles so turned up the stirring action a little. Certainly a bit of a smell coming off of the starter prior to stepping up, hoping it is down to the yeast being worked at a higher temperature and not some sort of dodgy yeast getting in there.

Planning to slowly take the temperature down to pitching temp, decanting and then pitching the slurry, hopefully I will get a similar reaction as I did when I stepped up the yeast

 

[Black n Tan]

turn your stir plate down - looks like a rapid whirlpool.. then you'll get some krausen. I usually start with it on the lowest setting and ramp it a day later. You don't need massive stirs.

Kaiser has performed some experiments and had found that a strong vortex resulted in more growth, so I always turn mine up to '11'.



http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2013/03/25/stir-speed-and-yeast-growth/

EDIT: typo

 

[MitchDudarko]

Surely it'd be to do with the fact there's more oxygen being dissolved with a stronger vortex.
My understanding is oxygen makes the cell walls more pliable and therefore makes it easier for the yeast to create daughter cells.

 

[Black n Tan]

Surely it'd be to do with the fact there's more oxygen being dissolved with a stronger vortex.
My understanding is oxygen makes the cell walls more pliable and therefore makes it easier for the yeast to create daughter cells.

yes oxygen is required to make sterols which are an important component of the plasma membrane and required for cell division.

 

[Spiesy]

It also wouldn't hurt to add a touch of yeast nutrient to your starter. Keep those yeasties happy.

 

[storeboughtcheeseburgers]

Kaiser has performed some experiments and had found that a strong vortex resulted in more growth, so I always turn mine up to '11'.



http://braukaiser.com/blog/blog/2013/03/25/stir-speed-and-yeast-growth/

EDIT: typo

Didn't know that. I might crank mine up next time cheers - Only just got a stir plate so its a bit new to me.

 

[Weizguy]

I too like to scrape up a small amount of yeast nutrient with a knife, and add it to the wort before the boil. Just a tiny touch, like a fingernail clipping size.

You can add it while boiling if you want to see a volcanic boilover, and if you like to clean things.

 

[mfeighan]

You can add it while boiling if you want to see a volcanic boilover, and if you like to clean things.

Yup definitely do before the boil haha had a similar experience.

 

[antiphile]

I'm happy to be corrected here, but I'm pretty sure I read there is a limit to the oxygen level where the yeast will reproduce and where it actually becomes "toxic" to the yeast. (Toxic isn't the word I'm looking for, but the rate of reproduction slows down). I suspect you'll never reach this limit on a stir plate, but it certainly is possible to reach it if aerating with pure oxygen.

Note: Perhaps a better word may be deleterious. In fact, I think I'll make that my word of the week. I was getting tired of "perfidious" and "perspicacity" anyway.

 

[peas_and_corn]

You will only be able to get that sort of do levels if you used an oxygen tank and air stone. Shaking and stirring? Nah.

 

[Parks]

8h isn't long. Times vary but noticeable change can take 24h in some cases. And they don't always finish in 24h either, especially a lager. Give it 5 days to fully ferment out.
As above too. If you're really worried about krausen, turn off the stir plate and look at it closely. If it's fermenting you'll see small bubbles coming from the bottom (on a lager).

You don't need or really want to let it ferment out. You want to get it into your brew right when the growth phase is ending and before fermentation actually starts. This is the most active and healthy your yeast will be.

Once the krausen starts (if not on a stir plate) it's ready to pitch or start your next starter step.

 

[storeboughtcheeseburgers]

I prefer to brew out, cold crash - pitch cold - the amount of yeast your adding to the avg wort (21L) - the temperature will soon adjust.. and the yeast has to adjust anyway to the new wort.. unless your brewing your starter in the same wort, which I have found ends up kicking off within a few hours.

I usually boil some water, add to a sanitised jug and add it to the flask to swirl and get all the yeasty goodness (especially the residual which can cling to the flask).

Have not had any problems with high krausen pitching, however it is not my personal preference. Both ways work, you'll end up with beer!