How Do You First Wort Hop And/or Mash Hop

[PistolPatch]

I recently had the same beer brewed two different ways. One was mash hopped and the other hopped normally. I loved the mash hopped one. I have also had FWH highly recommended to me.

Due to rain I was able to brew today and was looking forward to trying out FWH and/or mash hopping. After doing about an hour's reading (including Google search) I've given up and am now proceeding with a regular brew. The info out there is scattered and confusing.

If anyone has the time to explain these processes clearly I'm sure that many others besides me would be grateful.

I'm not sure if me asking specific questions helps but here's two that are currently floating around in my head...

1. If you have say 30 grams of 7.7% Pearle hops then...

Mash Hopping will give you 5.8 IBUs
First Wort Hopping will give you 31.9IBUs
A 90 minute boil will give you 29.0 IBUs

Are the hops in mash hopping removed before sparging? If not, why the big difference in IBUs?

2. How do you know whether to choose FWH, mash hopping or normal hopping or, even more confusing, a combination?

Answering the above is going to take way too much of someone's time but maybe if a few people can answer/explain one of the above, it would be a huge help.

Many thanks from me and my fellow bewildered,
PP

 

[tangent]

mash hopping only extracts some smells and flavours because you're not boiling the hops Pat.
FWH means the hops are in contact with wort during the heating AND boiling of the wort.

Does that make sense?

 

[Stuster]

1. The figure for FWH you give is too high. It should be roughly the same as the IBUs you get from a 20 minute boil. You can adjust the brewing software you use to get the right utilisation.
Lots of the hops will be left behind in the mash tun so will give you less IBUs. FWHing is more mysterious but there are probably some reactions that are happening at these temps that change how the alpha acids are affected by the boil. I love FWHing, but have never mash hopped as it seems to be a waste of hops. h34r:

2. To mash hop, chuck the hops into the mash. :unsure:
To FWH hop, chuck the hops into the bottom of the kettle before you run off the wort into it from the mash.

Not sure how you'd do these with BIAB. :unsure:

 

[DJR]

FWH extracts nowhere near that amount of bitterness - more like a 20-30 min addition equivalent.

When i'm doing FWH, i just chuck the FWH hops in the kettle before i run off the mash into it. The FWH hops are then in contact with the non-boiling wort which supposedly extracts a different sort of aroma through the binding of aroma compounds.

My FWH APA got 2nd place at the NSW comps so there must be something in it (FWH'ed with Nelson Sauvin and Amarillo)

Haven't tried Mash hopping yet, but i can tell you that the IBU's are much lower because the hops have to be in boiling water to extract bitterness compounds effectively, mash temps only isomerize a little bit of the alpha acids.

All this talk is making me thirsty... :lol:

 

[DJR]

Not sure how you'd do these with BIAB. :unsure:

I'd say for Mash hop just chuck the hops in the bag and take them out with the grain, for FWH just chuck them in outside the bag at some point during the mash.

 

[Voosher]

A while ago I wondered (and posted) about the bitterness derived specifically from mash hopping. ProMash has a default value of -80% alpha utilisation for mash hopping and +10% for First Wort Hopping (correction - see Edit). After some experimentation with mash hopping I find this figure pretty close so I'll go with it.
I'm yet to find a layman's explanation of the chemistry but my understanding (of mash hopping) is that the steeping of the hops at mash temps extracts oils and acids which are flavour and aroma compounds. It prevents isomerisation of the bittering acids hence the lower IBU's from mash hopping. I find the flavour of mash hopping smoother than hops in the boil but you need up to twice as many hops to get the same volume of flavour and aroma.
I'm yet to look into FWH in detail but some similar reactions are at play as the hops are steeped in 70+C wort before boiling. The hop compounds aren't subjected to the same time at the lower temps so presumably the isomerisation neutralising effects are reduced. They also get a longer exposure at temps over 70C. I don't know at what temp bittering compounds are produced but if FWH'ing gives higher bitterness then it is presumably less than 100C - hence a higher bitterness with FWH'ing (correction - see edit).
My rule of thumb as to when to FWH or Mash hop are basically FWH as a bittering replacement and Mash hops as predominantly flavour and to a lesser extent aroma substitution.
The best way is, of course, to 'suck it and see'.

Edit: Apologies. Just checked and ProMash is about minus 5% for FWH. Don't know where I got the +10 from :huh:

Second edit: I've got different figures for Mash hopping as well. Maybe I changed the defaults.
Sorry. Too busy to check right now. I have some sparging to do.

Some of the rest of the post may still make sense. :blink:

 

[Stuster]

Voosher, do you get aroma from mash hopping?

 

[DJR]

The consensus around the place seems to suggest that the FWH calc in promash should actually be about the -60% mark. That would agree with the times that i've used it.

 

[Voosher]

Voosher, do you get aroma from mash hopping?

Some but predominantly flavour.

But as you can see from my post I'm also currently in a state of confusion :blink:

Ross and timmy both recently did mash hop only brews. I will one day.
It would be interesting to hear what they have to say about aroma with mash hops.


By the way. I'm happy to see that signature up there. A classic. Nice one Dunkel Boy

 

[PistolPatch]

Didn't expect such an immediate response. Where do I start? :blink: Maybe in order.

Instead of doing my usual detailed thanks (you know how much I appreciate your answers), I'll just ask brief questions that I guess other newcomers to this may have...

Howdy Tangent: I think it's just dawned on me that my question on removing the hops before the boil with mash hopping was a totally stupid one. (Was thinking too much of BIAB). Of course the mash hops never see the boil - they are still in the mash tun. Doh! Thanks mate!

Evenin' Stuster: You say that the FWH figure is too high. I got this from BeerSmith. Basically Beersmith gives bugger all difference between a 90 minute addition and a first hop addition. Do you reckon this is another thing they have got wrong? (Thanks for thinking of BIAB too mate.)

I'm thirsty too DJR: I think it's all starting to make sense now. For the FWH with BIAB, you would just add your hop sock as you bring the brew to the boil. Congrats on the comp too.

Top answer Voosher: What you say makes sense especially now as I realise my stupid question on mash hopping - lol. I totally agree on the 'smoothness' description of the mash hopping. I had that mash hop of Ross's and was blown away by the difference. It's what prompted this thread.

Your answers have cleared up heaps. Thanks for taking the time.

I know I have one further question on this but will post it later - better finish this brew...

:beer:
Pat

 

[Stuster]

Evenin' Stuster: You say that the FWH figure is too high. I got this from BeerSmith. Basically Beersmith gives bugger all difference between a 90 minute addition and a first hop addition. Do you reckon this is another thing they have got wrong? (Thanks for thinking of BIAB too mate.)

There's a bit of confusion about the exact figures, but almost everyone seems to agree on FWHing being the equivalent of a 20-30 minute boil. The figures on Beersmith are definitely way out. Anyway, without getting all TroughLolly on you, I'd say -40% utilisation will get you close.

(I know that -60% or -65% is often quoted, Ben, but I that doesn't agree with roughly a 20 minute utilisation. -60% is equivalent to a 12 minute boil, -65% to a 10 minute boil, neither of which seem right to me. :unsure: )

 

[WildaYeast]

Thanks for asking the 'dumb' questions Pat. Quite enjoyed that little bit of education.

Cheers, Brian

 

[Stabilo_Boss]

Thanks guys, extremely educational.

Just for clarification with the FWH why isn't the utilisation up there with the hops that have been in the entire time of the boil? (assuming that you are leaving them in there)

 

[DJR]

It's got something to do with the changed utilisation of the hop compounds from sitting in the hot but not boiling wort before they boil. I think you need to play around with the exact utilisation figures for your system and boil time though, as you would expect it would increase the bitterness but it always seems to decrease it somewhere between 30-40% for me over a 60 minute boil. Lots of debate out there about the true numbers.

I think to be on the safe side calculate it as a 50 minute boil (for a 60 minute boil total) which is what Promash uses to err on the side of caution. The final number will probably be different but just start small by replacing some or all of your flavour/aroma hops in a hoppy recipe (APA/IPA/ESB/Pils) with some FWH hops instead and see what the difference is.

 

[ant]

I can understand better utilisation with FWH - the hops are in the kettle longer, and you can use more hops. But mash hopping...

My understanding was that a 60 min+ boil essentially removes the flavour and aroma component, which is why these are 0-15 min additions. So for mash hopping, I can rationalise Voosher's explanation of how steeping of the hops at mash temps extracts oils and acids which are flavour and aroma compounds, but I wouldn't have thought these would have survived being brought to boil temperatures for the duration of a full boil. The concept of mash hopping seems to suggest that if you heat the hops to mash temps and hold them there for an hour or so, you'll "lock" those oils/acids at a flavour/aroma phase, and that an increase in temperature for a subsequent doesn't affect these compounds. I dunno... but this just doesn't seem right. I mean, I've also read that brews with mash hopping *only* are still adequately bittered, which indicates to me that any flavour/aroma compounds are not totally "locked in" and that isomerisation of bittering acids still occurs.

Not saying that mash hopped beers aren't smoother (although I haven't knowingly had one), just that I don't understand it. You can't have it both ways - either mash hopping locks in flavour/aroma or it doesn't, and boiling produces bitterness.

It would be interesting to cool a post boil wort down to mash temps and recirc through a hopback before chilling to ferment temps. Would this produce the same "rounded smoothness"?

:huh:

 

[THE DRUNK ARAB]

So can anyone give me an idea what is the equivalent amount of boiling time for a mash hop addition over a 60 minute mash and 90 minute boil? :blink:

C&B
TDA

 

[Jye]

TDA, Someone on the brewboard did a mash hop only porter and had the IBUs tested, it seems to be equivalent to about a 5min addition in bitterness.

53.99 BUs - 19.25 oz. of 4.7%aa Cascade

 

[Voosher]

TDA, Someone on the brewboard did a mash hop only porter and had the IBUs tested, it seems to be equivalent to about a 5min addition in bitterness.

53.99 BUs - 19.25 oz. of 4.7%aa Cascade

When timmy did his Mash hop APA, MHB thought he might be able to organise an IBU test. (Link here)
If he's still able to, and if someone is planning an all-Mash-hop brew - especially if they're near Newcaste - it would be an interesting exercise in the name of this obscure science.

 

[Zizzle]

I recently had the same beer brewed two different ways. One was mash hopped and the other hopped normally. I loved the mash hopped one. I have also had FWH highly recommended to me.

Can you elaborate on the taste difference? What style of beer?

 

[Ross]

So can anyone give me an idea what is the equivalent amount of boiling time for a mash hop addition over a 60 minute mash and 90 minute boil? :blink:

C&B
TDA

TDA,

I have a 100% mash hopped amber on tap at the moment. I made it side by side with my usual 3%alc house amber. Using same grain bill, I mashed with 100gms of mixed high alpha hops, using the bitterness of a 5 min boil for the calculation. The bitterness level of both beers was pretty well identical - so i think the 5min rule is pretty well spot on. The mash hopped beer totally lacks hop aroma & is totally malt driven. Still not a bad drop though...

Edit: If MHB wishes to do an IBU test on it, I'll happily send a bottle down...

cheers Ross