How Do You First Wort Hop And/or Mash Hop

[PistolPatch]

Howdy Zizzle!

See that last post of Ross's? That was the beer I was talking about. I'm the total opposite of Ross :lol: I totally preferred the mash hopped beer. I found it outstanding - way smoother and way more balanced. Sorry mate, I'm not very good on describing taste.

Cheers
Pat

 

[Jye]

Howdy Zizzle!

See that last post of Ross's? That was the beer I was talking about. I'm the total opposite of Ross :lol: I totally preferred the mash hopped beer. I found it outstanding - way smoother and way more balanced. Sorry mate, I'm not very good on describing taste.

Cheers
Pat

Pat you are the biggest pansy when it comes to hops, I cant believe your thinking of FWH and mash hopping

 

[Zizzle]

I think my tastes swing your direction rather that Ross's... beer wise anyway

So I'll have to wait for you be the risk taking trend setter, like with BIAB and see how I like the result. :beer:

 

[PistolPatch]

Zizzle - you and I are right! I mean Jye drinks Ross's Ruination for breakfast. It gives him a bloody good sense of humour though.

I'll brew some and you and I can have it all to ourselves!

I better go before this deteriorates into our usual Friday night ramblings. Pretty impressed with all the info here so far.

Thanks again guys.

 

[MHB]

Thanks Ross but I think I will pass.

Two reasons
1/ my interest was in flowers used in mash hoping, I still can't see how much if any Alpha acid gets from the mash tun to the kettle (the original material for this notion came from the reported use of expended hops in the form of flowers, as a filter aid).
If you are using pellets, as the hop is a very fine powder enough lupin glands will be detached or broken up to allow some alpha acid to elute to the kettle, as particulate matter, where it is isomerised in the normal way.
Either way, I can't see the point; just use 10% of your hop bill straight into the kettle.

2/ 100g, say the average alpha was around 10%, same utilisation as a 5 minute boil, for what is by your own reporting the same bitterness, would be around 20 IBU. A utilisation of around 5%
Again; I can't see the point it's just a profligate waste of money and good hops for no gain.

MHB

 

[Ross]

100g, say the average alpha was around 10%, same utilisation as a 5 minute boil, for what is by your own reporting the same bitterness, would be around 20 IBU. A utilisation of around 5%
Again; I can't see the point it's just a profligate waste of money and good hops for no gain.

MHB

I agree - I tested the theory & as previously stated, i believe mash hopping to be a total waste of hops. i found nothing in the resultant beer that IMO couldn't be achieved with a small 60 min addition.

Edit: MHB, just looked back at Vooshers link & you requested a bottle made with just pellets - no mention of flowers. Anyway, I reckon it's a waste of time, so nothing lost...


cheers Ross

 

[THE DRUNK ARAB]

Thank you Jye, Voosher and Ross :beer:

The reason I asked was that the recipe I have for Pliny the Elder calls for 43 grams of Mash Hopped Chinook. I would rather add an equivalent IBU amount as FWH simply because of previous opinions on Mash Hopping.
From your experiences it does appear to be a waste of good "C" hops

C&B
TDA

 

[Kai]

I threw a shirtload of home-grown chinook into an american cream ale just recently, since I had 20% flaked adjunct in it I was hoping it would help lautering. It may or may nor have, but I do know I can't taste it anywhere near as much on mash hopping as I could have as a flavour addition.

 

[PistolPatch]

Just had time to re-read all this properly. Stuster, thanks for answering the Beersmith question.

Consensus so far seems to be that mash hopping is a waste of hops.

This leaves FWH which if I understand correctly requires a little more than double the hops you'd use in a 60 minute addition.

I can't see anywhere above a description of the advantage/s of FWH. Does anyone know what they are? I have heard elsewhere that it gives a smoother profile.

 

[MHB]

PP
Hope were originally used in beer as a preservative, as well as to bitter the beer.
In a long boil, i.e. over 1 hour, the rate that alpha acid is converted into iso-alpha acid: and the rate that iso-alpha acid breakdowns down into Trans-iso-alpha products comes into balance.

The point is that the wort doesnt get bitter for a longer boil.

The alpha acid (and other hop resin) breakdown products are still a preservative but lack the bitterness, by all reports they give the beer a "more satisfying taste" what ever that means (I dont think the BJCP have a term for this).

There were experiments conducted in the 50"s and 60's with this in mind; however breweries determined that the improvement wasnt worth the cost.

I think the outcome of a very long boil i.e. 2+ hours, with early hop additions will give a beer that is mellow, even if the bitterness is the same.

Big malty ale, in the English strong ale tradition, hoped early in a long boil, preferably with a low alpha traditional hop, sounds like it would be a good choice for you (now that I will have a bottle of)

MHB

 

[Stuster]

I've used FWHing a number of times. I'm happy with the results but I've never done a real experiment to test the effect. I should do a FWH only beer experiment and with the amount of hops in my freezer, now is the right time. I feel FWHing adds more hop flavour and aroma (so maybe it wouldn't be for you :lol: ). You add more hops than a 60 minute boil, but get more flavour and aroma rather than more bitterness.

I wonder if you liked the mash hopped beer just because it had fewer IBUs. h34r: As MHB says, maybe you'd be best off with a mellow, sweet beer and nothing wrong with that I guess. (...muttermumblebiggirlsblousemuttermumblehandinhismancardmuttergrumble....)

 

[PistolPatch]

That's a very interesting answer for me Mark.

I think where Jye says I'm a hop pansy (lol) I think a better description would be a, 'sharpness pansy'. You use the word, 'mellow.' I think this is what I'm after - a bitter beer without the grating sharpness.

Your comment on how the breweries found it too expensive excites me as we all know that commercial breweries watch every cent. Whilst I would mind adding $5 of extra hops to a brew, I certainly wouldn't mind adding a dollar or two.

By the way, in your post, I assume you mean FWH plus a 2 hour boil?

Also does anyone know how long the hops are meant to steep in the hot liquor before reaching the boil? If my memory serves me correctly, if batch sparging, you are looking at say 30-45 minutes before you reach the boil from the first trickle of the first sparge. With my BIAB set-up I reach the boil in 20 minutes after mash ends. I wonder if I would have to delay the boil?

Please excuse my continuing questions!
Pat

 

[PistolPatch]

(...muttermumblebiggirlsblousemuttermumblehandinhismancardmuttergrumble....)

Good on ya Stuster!

You posted while I was doing my essay above. Hopefully the essay answers what I'm after. Certainly don't want a sweet beer!!!

LOL
Pat

 

[Stuster]

You might want to try using some low co-humulone hops, PP. These hops are supposed to have a smoother bitterness and it certainly seems true in my experience. Glacier is one of the lowest around at the moment with a co-ho level of 11% or so and it certainly does taste smooth to me. Chinook on the other hand is pretty high co-humulone and it does have a much harsher bitterness.

 

[DJR]

Just to weigh in with at least 1 result from FWH...

My 1st AG APA was done with 10g of Amarillo and 10g of Nelson Sauvin in FWH. Both pretty high-alpha hops with low co-humulone levels. Without the FWH additions my beer would have been about 30IBU. With them in calc'ed as a 20 minute addition i get 44 IBU (check the recipes - Hop Monster APA).

The production method was a bit funny, i left the flameout hops in the kettle for about 2 hours while we went to get dinner, which explains why this batch had mega aroma. But the bitterness was almost spot on, maybe just slightly higher, from either the FWH addition being a little higher in IBUs that calc'ed, or from some isomerisation of the hops that were sitting in hot wort for two hours.

If anything the IBU's probably came to about 50 or so, but i was dead close. Since every hop i used was low co-humulone, it came out very very drinkable despite the high IBUs. The simcoe that i used was 10% co-humulone!

The other times i've used FWH has been in Pilsners and the results have been pretty much spot on the calc'ed bitterness levels for 20 minutes.

 

[MHB]

What the guys are saying about low cohumulone hops is on the money, the other thing to look at is the alpha/beta ratio.

For bittering, (I am not sure about the effect on hop taste/aroma) it wouldnt matter when you added the hops. You could add to the kettle as soon as you have enough liquid in there to cover the hops or for the BIAB brewers when you pull the bag out. The relative insolubility of most hop resins means that you won't get much extraction until the wort comes to the boil.

The reason I suggested the traditional hop variates is obvious if you have a look at the table posted here.


There is also a pie-graph version of this table that makes it really easy to see what is going on.
I will dig it up and post it if anyone is interested.

MHB

 

[PistolPatch]

Thanks for the heads up on the co-humulone factor Stuster and DJR. Never heard of it before. Looks like I have quite some experimenting to do.

If you do have time to dig up the pie graph MHB that would be great. That spreadsheet above is brilliant thanks and I think will be getting a lot of use.

By the way, what effect does the alpha/beta ratio have?

I should have asked this before but it's been a big beer drinking week up here so I have had to limit myself to nonsensical posts

Many thanks,
Pat

 

[MHB]

As Requested

View attachment 10167

MHB

 

[DarkFaerytale]

was just reading through this thread and i think it would make a good wiki topic if someone was to gather the info and re-write it back out, someone with a better writting ability than myself that is

-Phill

 

[tangent]

Consensus so far seems to be that mash hopping is a waste of hops.

I wouldn't say that.
http://www.paddockwood.com/article_info.ph...a26c1030c47a4ed