Herms Controller

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ozbrewer

im ozzing flab
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So what i want to do is have some controll over my system, I have seen some PID and Picaxe try controlles, however...im a dumass when it comes to this sort of thing.....but now its time for me to learn

Can anyone start me in the right direction of what is the best/easyest to use, and build


what im wanting to do is set the temp for the mash, and have to contoller work on the setting, so if it drops the pump kiks in and send the wort to the HE, and then turns it off when its done....

also needs to controll the temp on the HE, may also like to controll solinoids in the plumbing so i dont need to turn taps or move hoses


Any ideas???
 
Oz

I use a tempetature controller to maintain the temp in the mash tun, and also to raise the temp. The controller just turnes on the march pump.

The hlt I just get to 90 odd degrees after mash in and this seems to work fine to end up with a sparge temp of about 80 for a simple step mash. On some of the more complex (read more steps) mashes I may need to raise the temp in the hlt before sparging or the final step but I tend to hang around in the shed while brewing so this isn't a huge issue.

Hope this helps

regards Derrick
 
I use a picaxe to controll mine, but i would not say its "easy" (nor hard) it took a long time to make due to all the testing and interface with heaters (mains) and pumps etc.

for me it was fun as thats my area of work. and i intend to upgrade it to a more powerfull controller, as i run LCD's, mash, HE, HLT pumps etc etc and this also manages the power so that i wont trip the 1-amp outlet.

fun but not the fastest method if you want a quick result
 
gout thats the sort of thing im after....can you give me more details....and point me in the right directions
 
how i want it to work is......a display with curent temp for mash, and HLT

then a way of moving the desired temp up/down for both with a display...

then when the mash temp drops the controller switches the march pump on, and same with the HLT


maybe also a bypass for both
 
well i am using a picaxe 28 i think now, if you are ok with software (as in thinking like a simple computer, such as a step at a time, and loops etc) then the pic axe is easy enough, even though its very slow.

as a example it can be as basic as

get the temp
if its cold, then turn on the pump and heater
if not test the temp again

you can keep building on it, add in HE test temps and controlling that heater

etc etc you keep building on it.

you do however need to take care with mains. you want it very isolated from your controls (like opto coupler, or solid state relays with built in opto)

I am lucky in i got bits from work and bits thrown out over the years, otherwise mine would have cost a heap
 
yeah cost is the problem, i dont want it costing more than it needs to
 
I would tend to think some cheap off the shelf may work out cheaper to be honest. however you are then stuck with whats on offer. I can change mine to suit.

just depends how well you plan it. I have no real experiance with the PID sort controlers, as i havn't found the "control" needs to be that tight due to the huge thermal mass

mine is more for getting things to a set temp and holding it around there.
 
Don't forget guys that most PID controllers can be set up to run as simple on/off controllers (usually by setting the proportional (P) value to 0-but it will say it in the instruction manual). I agree for our applications we don't need the functions of a PID.

However, PIDs are a nice bit of gear because they give you a current realtime tempeature display of your process temp (ie. vessel temp) that is clear and easy to see, with the press of a button you can look at your set temp and change that up/down as necessary in a second. Throw in a few other features like hi/low indicators and variable hysteresis and you have a pretty good controller that's very easy to use.

For easy of use and fast build time I'd seriously look at just buying two PID contollers (one for mash and one for HLT). There are a few brand new PID controllers on US ebay for about $32US Buy it Now that you can choose between relay or solid state outputs. if you just want to control the pump you could run it straight off the PIDs relay, if you want to control elements you'll need a SSR or build a second relay to handle the extra current draw. I've got quotes off these guys before, I forget what it works out to be but expect to pay about $60-$70 total delivered to your door. Not bad. If you want to search and bid on a few different ones they can be had much cheaper.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Brand-New-Digital-P...1QQcmdZViewItem

Perhaps not as beautiful as a full LCD but these will certainly do the job.

I'd also consider recirculating for the full amount of time during the mash rather than turning the pump on and off (personal opinion only). Mainly because I would expect if you turn the pump on and off you would get your mash temp yoyoing because of the lag time. If it's recirculating all the time I'd expect you would get a more even and accurate temp reading.

Reading your temp in the mash, where would you put your probe? If you put it in the middle of the mash tun-that area doesn't cool down as quick as the outsides. If you put the probe on the outer part you don't get an accurate reading of the inner temp. Hopefully with a constantly moving wort flow these temps might be a little closer. I'm not an advocate for placing the controller probe in the mash tun, I like the idea of placing it as per the HERMITs brewery, but I have no experience with either.

Also, if your only going to control the wort flow through the heat exchanger by turning the pump on and off then you don't really need solenoid valves for any bypass loop. If you want to incorporate solenoid valves for fluid flow I would suggest just manually switching them on and off as needed rather than trying to write a program to do it all automatically. Solenoid valves are expensive and will add a hell of a lot of complexity to the system, but good luck if you decide to go this route.

Cheers, Justin

PS. When are you going to get your website up and running with the updates again?
 
Justin.

Do you know if you're able to change the factory fahrenheit setting? :unsure:

Would be a bit of a PITA not having celcius. :ph34r: That said one of them would be mighty nice on the HLT. My capiliary thermostat always goes a bit wonky above 55c in terms of accuracy. Just insulated my HLT may make a difference.

No arguing with the price. I was looking at Fujis about 12 months ago. Looking at near on $200 for one. A little prohibitive. :eek:

Warren -
 
Oh hang on.

Looking at the pic of the unit it as a celcius marking on it. I'd say it could be changed. :beerbang:

Warren -
 
Here's some pics of my solution and my latest project.

It's an omron PID. It has a relay output, but I want it to directly control heating elements. The relay in the controller is only rated to 3Amps but the heaters will draw up to 10amps. Therefore I needed to wire up some secondary relays to handle the increased current draw.

I plan to get another one. So I'll have one for the HLT and one for the separate HERMS tank that is planned (which will be a 7L stock pot).

Basically in the black jiffy box I've wired in two 15amp relays to control the power to the two elements. The relay in the controller turns the two secondary relays on and off in the box. The Herms controller will only need one secondary relay because there will only be one element in that tank.

**NB. It doesn't have to be as complicated as this. This is just how I did it for a specific set of requirements I needed and out of bits and pieces I had. I don't mean to scare anyone with all those wires. :blink: :D

Controller2.jpg

Controller4.jpg

Controller5.jpg

Controller6.jpg

Controller7.jpg

Don't fret guys. The box and controller will be safely tucked away in a sealed enclosure where water can't get to it. I actually started building this controller when I had my old three tier where I was able to put it somewhere safe, I used it with a mechanical thermostat too Warren. It now has to go under my vessels in my one tier system so will have to be suitable protected from water. The controller face is actually water proof as well and I have another water proof cover that further protects it.

Cheers, Justin
 
If you guys only want to read a temp, and switch on or off a heater for say a HLT

you could use a simple picaxe 08M (~$5) ant thats going to only use 2 pins, one for the single wire temp sensor (digital IC thats very accurate) and a output to the heater.

If you want to display the temp, there is a LCD kit for ~$30?? and then you can display set points the temp, has a real time clock etc etc

add a second temp sensor and you can display mash, hlt temps and control the outputs for lets say ~$50-60.

if you used a bigger chip (more pins/ IO) you can control a lot more / monitor a lot more.

I have mine showing the HLT temp, its set point, the mash temp, its set point, the HE temp, set point, the HE out put temp, the HE input temp.

you can show 2 temps and set points, then refresh the lcd with the next lot of info etc etc.... depends how much you like to play with electronics/basic software


edit crap spelling
 
Justin said:
PS. When are you going to get your website up and running with the updates again?
[post="102296"][/post]​


cheers mate, i thnk your about the 1000th person to ask.....i got to pull my finger out
 
Hi Gout,

Do you reckon you could post some further details on setting up a PIXaxe to do this. Perhaps wiring diagrams and some code along with parts etc. I looked at doing things this way a while back, even joined the yahoo picaxe group and started learning how and what to do. But basically I think I decided that it would cost me around the same money anyway as a controller by the time an LCD display, a programmer and other stuff was sorted out. And then there was always the possibility of it not working in the end.

However, I'm still interested to see how you did it. I'm still after one more controller so I could still go this route for it. Only needs to be a very simple controller as I have thermometers on my vessels anyway.

Post a new topic and let us know if you could. I'd be really interested to see. I found plenty of info on the net but it was going to take a lot of sifting through and reading to get the knowledge to just do exactly what I was after.

I love tinkering with stuff.

Cheers, Justin
 
I will try and get mine up here in the interest of helping other brewers (and for the software boys to have a laugh) as i am not a software person, so its a bit like polishing a turd, however it works.

I am busy at the moment for work reasons, however i will see if i can slap a basic example of a temp control (very "on off with hysterisis" no way near as fancy as pid)

cheers ben

P.S.... There is a member in melbourne, Ant?? (Arnie W) who has the... "hermen"?? brewery and he had also used picaxe(at one stage) and was far more advanced than mine, infact he helped me with ideas and mine was based on his good work. so credit to him.

http://users.tpg.com.au/adsl2y58/userfiles/html/default.htm
(found it)
 
Cheers many thanks, I did actually find that site a while ago. Will have to go and have a look again.

Just while we are on the subject. If anyone is looking for general PID/contoller sort of contruction info I have these links here that I have found from searches. I assume they are correct in what and how they have built their stuff but remember to just be a bit careful if you plan on going further with these ideas and construction. If your abit unsure blah blah the usual.

http://toblerglasscreations.com/fuji/

http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread...99&page=1&pp=15
 
Hi Everyone,

I only joined this group a few days ago, but this thread is right down my alley.

I agree with those who say you don't need a PID. I've done about 130-140 HERMS batches without one. They do seem to be a simple/neat solution for those frightened away by electronic circuits though.

I've been using picaxe for quite some time and would recommend them to anyone who wants an easy and cheap entry point into programmable controllers. While they are not as powerful as many others, they are excellent for their market niche.

My system uses picaxes to switch home made solid state relays, and I can vary the power on them as well. You can find full schematics, circuit board etch designs, and picaxe code for my fridge controller here:

http://users.tpg.com.au/adsl2y58/userfiles/html/fridge.htm

Don't be fooled by the title 'fridge controller' because it can be used for a HERMS controller by altering one or two lines of picaxe code. So have a look at it Ozbrewer, it even has the solid state relay built in and uses a zero-crossing detector too.

:beer:

Arnie
 
Welcome Arnie.

Nice post to open up with too. I've had a look over your site and have to say I'm very impressed. There's been a lot of time and patience, dedication and money gone in your rig. Appreciate the work in documenting all the stuff on your website too. The picaxe stuff is especially handy. Great work.

Hope you enjoy this forum. Good bunch of people.

FWIW I love the hop additions machine as well :super:

Cheers, Justin
 
Welcome aboard Arnie!

Vic. ratio just clicked up by one. :lol:

Warren -
 

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