Hefe Advice And Decoction Mashing

[manticle]

I've read a little bit about this in various places as well as received a bit of advice from a fellow brewer here but it's also good to learn different methods and why people do what they do.

I plan on making a hefe soon with the following recipe:

Hefe

Size: 22 liters

Color: 4 HCU (~4 SRM)

Bitterness: 18 IBU

OG: 1.055

FG: 1.012

Alcohol: 5.5% v/v (4.3% w/w)

2kg British Pilsner
3kg Wheat malt
500g Rice hulls

Mash: 70% efficiency

Boil: 60 minutes

SG 1.035 34 liter

35g Hallertauer (4.25% AA, 60 min.)

Irish moss

Wyeast 3068

I have an esky mash tun so I'm looking at doing a single or double decoction mash as described here:

"
Average 2-step method
For Belgian pale ale, German pilsner, Munich styles and Bavarian wheat beer.

This method takes 2.5 to 3.5 hours, depending on the grist.

• Strike temperature of 53C, stir well and rest for 20'
• Stir and take 1/3 of the mash. (If you use a large proportion of unmalted grains you can take less of the mash and add water and dry crushed grains to make up 1/3 of the total volume). Heat to 72C, rest for 20' (malt) to 40' (malt+grains).
• Bring to boil and boil for 15-30'
• Add back to reach a temperature of 65-67C, rest 15-35'
• Take 1/4 of the mash, boil for 15-30'
• Add back to reach a temperature of 70-73C, rest until saccharification is complete (30'-1h).
• No mash-out, start sparge immediately.

taken from: http://brewery.org/library/DecoctFAQ.html.

What's confusing me is that some advice suggests just boiling the liquor whereas other advice recommends boiling the actual mash. My previous understanding (and the advice of aforementioned brewer) suggests this is a potential risk of tannin extraction.


What other benefits does it give to boil the actual grains that boiling liquor does not? If I just go with using the liquor my step mash will still be a step mash so are there other benefits for this style and are they worth it?


Cheers.

Also a quick question on rice hulls. I understand their purpose but am unsure of amounts. Is 500g enough and do I just chuck them in with the grains or do I need to put them in in any kind of order?

 

[brettprevans]

rice gulls on the bottom. 500g should be heaps. i think you use less than that normally? not sure i havent ever used them
as for the boiling grains part you know my stance.

 

[geoffi]

I use the gulls for most brews, and always with wheat. My mash tun is an esky with a ss braid. I usually put a few generous handfuls in before the grain. But I always stir the mash anyway, so I don't think the order matters. It still seems to work as I haven't had a stuck sparge using the gulls. I'm not sure of precise amounts, but they are cheap, and life is short enough without having the PITA of a stuck sparge.

 

[manticle]

as for the boiling grains part you know my stance.

Makes sense to me too.

 

[jbirbeck]

Decotions are great, I do them for all my brews now.

Boil the mash, the grains not the liquid (a bit of liquid in the boil is fine but it should be a really thick mash getting boiled). It smells great but take care to stir it as you bring it to the boil so you don't scorce the grains. Boiling the liquor kills then enzymes that convert your starches, boiling the grain adds a wonderful breadiness and maltiness to the beer without killing enzymes...I think and boiling the liquor adds nothing.

If you are using Beersmith you can choose a double decoction and that will give you volumes etc. It works quite well.

I've found it adds a nice depth of flavour and helps build up a maltiness without adding residual sweetnesss. I've also found it increases efficiency regardless of the types of grains used. I've not boiled for as long as your guide there.

My method:

split the initial decoction up front. mash in the decotion portion at 55 degrees and let it rest for 20 mins while mashing in the main mash, bring the dedoction up to 63-65 and let it sit for 20 mins while the main mash has its protein rest and then bring the decoction to the boil and boil for 10 mins before adding it back into the main mash. Let the main mash run for 10 mins and pull the next decoction. I let the decoction sit for a bit at mash temp before heating, normally about 10 mins before bringing to the boil and boiling for 5-10. Add it back in to the main mash and get the temp up. Don't check the temp of the main mash straight after adding the decoction back in as the temp won't be even, stir it in and leave it a couple of minutes then check.

I've not step mashed so I can't comment on how it compares but I love the way decoctions add depth to the beer.

 

[Effect]

rice gulls on the bottom. 500g should be heaps. i think you use less than that normally? not sure i havent ever used them
as for the boiling grains part you know my stance.

what's your stance on boiling grains?

If it is about tannins extraction, well, I have done several decoctions and I'm pretty sure a few others have as well with all good results. I think it has something to do with the pH of the liquid in which you are boiling the grains whether or not you will extract tannins.

Cheers
Phil

 

[geoffi]

My method lately for these beers is a step mash: 40, 50, 60, 70, and 75 for a mash out. I usually just add boiling water to raise the temp, but depending on how much time I have and if I could be arsed I might do a decoction for the step to 70c. Does it make a difference? Don't know really. The result tastes good so it's working for me.

 

[warra48]

I know the theory of decoction mashing, and I've done a few of them myself, including several wheaties. I've never been totally satisfied with the results.

Oddly enough, I did a single infusion hefeweizen recently, with WY3068, and it has turned out to be my best hefeweizen by far.
Go figure. Maybe it was controlling the fermentation temperature to 17.5C which did it.

 

[manticle]

I need more opinions on this please.

Boil the liquor?
Boil the grains?

And why?

Maybe I should have started a poll. I'm sure it's been covered elsewhere but some very wise (ha wieze vize ha) person should write a wiki article on this.

 

[warra48]

This reference might help, it's been discussed before:

Post 25
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...c=26160&hl=
by Tony 4.11.08

3068..... im my experience does go down hill with sucessive pitchings. Best to split the smack pack and grow it fresh in a starter each time.

Decoctions. Touchy subject on here. Yes they were born from necesity with poorly modified malt and yes.......... with todays malts, its not "needed" but have you ever had a run in a car with more that 300kw? It's not needed, but done corectly it does make a difference. It gives you that bit of wow factor.

I have done a heap of decoctions and if done corectly (i stress the word "correctly) thay add a fantastic maltiness to the beer without adding body and "cloyingness" associated with high mash temps usually used to acheive the same thing.

I think the secret with decoction mashing is to mash cooler than you normaly would. The process of slowly raising the pulled thick mash through the temperature range to boil adds more than enough body to make up for a lower mash temp.

I like to knock 2 or 3 deg's off what i would normally mash at for my rest temps.

My process:

mash in at 2.5 l/kg at 52 deg and immediately pull amount required for next temp step when boiling. Promash works these out for you in the complex mash scheduler. Raise the temp of the pulled thick mash (mostly grain with enough liquid to keep it fluid) to 66 deg. Hold there for 15 min to convert and then slowly raise it to boiling. Gently simmer for 10 to 15 min and pour back in the main mash and mix like hell.

At this point note the smell of boiling mash and also notice the colour development!

Rest it at the desired temp........ for a wheat i use 63 to 64 for 30 min and pull a thin decoction (liquid only) and bring strait to the boil. Add this back in to acheive 71 deg and rest for 10 to 20 min and then mash out at this temp.

Sparge as normal

Thats all i do and it adds a deep maltiness with the beer being crisp and refreshing. Thats the difference.

Oh...... you will get a deeper more saturated type colour the the beer too.

cheers

 

[Fourstar]

I have an esky mash tun so I'm looking at doing a single or double decoction mash as described here:
taken from: http://brewery.org/library/DecoctFAQ.html.

* Without coming off as an absolute twat...

Here is a very good reference for decoction mashing. you might find something of interest:
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?t...coction_Mashing

I'd recommend a ferulic acid rest as your 1st port of call to help throw clove esters during fermentation Try and get your pH at around 5.6 as this emphasises the cloviness. Considering you have the same water supply as me i'd suggest adding 5g of CaCl to your mash water, this will keep the pH close to 5.6~. If you dont add anything it will be closer to or higher than 5.7 which wont do much during that rest step. If thats the case, do your decoction as you please. i'd recommend a "Hochkurz Double Decoction" as outlined in my link.

Oh, BTW, if you do a protein rest, keep it @ 55deg, no less. You do not want to degrade any meduim chain proteins, otherwise you risk thinning out the body excessivly and reducing head retention.

Cheers bud.

 

[AndrewQLD]

My suggestion if doing a ferulic acid rest is to keep it under 10 minutes, any longer and you risk the clove flavors and aromas totally dominating the brew, the longer you leave it the more intense it becomes.

I dropped the ferulic rest on my last Weizen and had only slight traces of clove, but with a 15 minute rest it was very pronounced and a twenty minute rest it was too intense.

Andrew

 

[Screwtop]

Pretty sure my stance on this is well documented. 50/50 Pale (not Pils) and Wheat malt, single infusion 66 then ferment at 22 using 3068 for a banana and bubblegum sweetish Weizen. Step mash/decoction of 60% Wheat and 40% Pils same yeast and fermentation temp for a lighter coloured, dry, more clovey Weizen. If decocting use a thin mash 3.5L/Kg I don't need rice hulls using this method.

Screwy

 

[Effect]

Here is a very good reference for decoction mashing. you might find something of interest:
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?t...coction_Mashing

I PM'ed him that long ago...

 

[Effect]

Pretty sure my stance on this is well documented. 50/50 Pale (not Pils) and Wheat malt, single infusion 66 then ferment at 22 using 3068 for a banana and bubblegum sweetish Weizen. Step mash/decoction of 60% Wheat and 40% Pils same yeast and fermentation temp for a lighter coloured, dry, more clovey Weizen. If decocting use a thin mash 3.5L/Kg I don't need rice hulls using this method.

Screwy

both methods are fermented with the same yeast and same temp...so why the difference with the banana/bubblegum and clove? I get that it would be paler and drier because of the extra wheat, but would that really change the yeast profile?

Cheers
Phil

 

[raven19]

3068..... im my experience does go down hill with sucessive pitchings. Best to split the smack pack and grow it fresh in a starter each time.

I would concur with this.

The more important thing with a wheat beer imo is the ferment temperature.

Made a Weizen with a smackpack and had a good mix of banana and clove (albeit fermented at higher temps), enter the Dunkelwiezen in the keg now fermented at a cooler temp and the 'bland' clove like taste is not as impressive by any means.

Make sure your ferment temps are top notch and where you want them to be in terms of banana/clove in a weizen.

Lez the Weizguy is your friend on this one... (worth a PM imo - sorry Lez!)

My 2c only. :icon_cheers:

 

[Sammus]

I know it doesn't really help because I can't back it up, but I remember reading somewhere that boiling grains in a decoction wont extract tannins the same way as boiling them in a full boil. I can't recall the reason unfortunately, something to do with the gravity and thickness of what you're boiling. If you want something more empirical, I've done a million decoctions and havent noticed any astringency in any of them.

Decocting properly (ie boiling grains) <insert verb I can't think of here> maillard reactions which I think is the point of them - it adds a dimension of maltiness that's hard to obtain otherwise. Boiling just the liquid is just boiling liquid, you dont get much happening until you drive nearly all the water out and get a syrup, and if you keep boiling it you darken it and change it chemically, a process called caramelisation, and you'll end up with toffee or caramel or something similar. If you dont take it that far, boiling the liquid isn't doing a lot for you, but it can be useful for step mashing without decocting, particularly if you want to do a few steps and a sparge and your only way of stepping is with infusion - do a bunch of steps all with clean boiling water infusions and you end up with way too much liquor

anyway, sorry about the ramble, I hope it made some kind of sense.

slightly OT: if you've ever taste dulce de leche and thought it tasted kinda like caramel, but a different, thats because caramel is caramelised and dulce de leche is maillardised

 

[RdeVjun]

I know it doesn't really help because I can't back it up, but I remember reading somewhere that boiling grains in a decoction wont extract tannins the same way as boiling them in a full boil. I can't recall the reason unfortunately, something to do with the gravity and thickness of what you're boiling. If you want something more empirical, I've done a million decoctions and havent noticed any astringency in any of them.

I read somewhere (3rd- last para) it was the lowering pH that prevents tannin (and I presume, astringency) extraction.
I'm not a decocter though, just curious... very curious in fact.

 

[newguy]

[This is a cut & paste of a column I wrote regarding decoction for my club's newsletter some time ago]

The first time I did a decoction, I honestly couldnt have been more discouraged/angry. Every brewer Ive talked to who has done a decoction has a similar story. Its somewhat of a rite of passage.

When I did my first decoction, I did 5 gallon batches in my apartments kitchen using a 48 qt Coleman cooler as my mash tun. I boiled on an ordinary stove. An ordinary ~1.050 or so batch would take about 6 hours from start until cleanup. My first decoction took about 13 hours. Dont laugh, its not nice.

By the 3rd time I attempted a decoction (Im a stubborn guy thats why the first lousy experience didnt stop me from trying again), I got the time down to about 7 hours total for a full triple decoction.

The most important thing to remember is dont get upset if you miss a target temperature. The beer will still turn out. That aside, preparation is the key to a successful (short) decoction mash. You have to move quick and keep moving.

To be honest, a full triple decoction (approx 100F to 120F to 150F to 170F) is a waste of time. You can achieve the same flavours by going with a simple single decoction (120F to 150F or 150F to 170F). Of course, the temperatures I quote here are approximate I simply want to relate the acid rest, protein rest, saccharification rest, and mash out temperatures.

A decoction yields an almost impossible to describe spiciness/maltiness to the finished beer. Once you do a decoction, you will always recognize that taste.

Your system will ultimately dictate the final volumes necessary for the decoction, but with the system I mentioned earlier, pretty much dead on 30% of the total mash volume for each decoction would be pulled. Simply take a large measuring cup and scoop out the thickest part of the mash (mostly grain) for steps from 120F to 150F or for 100F 120F (acid rest to protein rest). For the mashout step, instead withdraw (pull) the thinnest part of the mash (mostly liquid). The decoction is then placed on the stove or a propane cooker and boiled. IT MUST BE STIRRED! Failure to stir the decoction is a sure fire way to scorch it. Once it starts vigorously boiling, stirring is no longer necessary as the movement of the grain is sufficient to prevent scorching.

The decoction should be boiled for at least 5 minutes before being added back to the mash. One of the biggest sources of concern is the time that withdrawing 30% of the mash and separately boiling it takes. To minimize this time, you should really withdraw the decoction no more than 5 minutes after your previous target temperature is hit.

Regarding tannins, the pH of the mash is (or should be) low enough to inhibit tannin extraction when the decoction is boiled. If you're concerned, use a pH test strip to measure the mash pH beforehand. It should be approximately 5 - 5.5. I personally use phosphoric acid at a rate of 1 ml/10 l of water to get my pH into the proper range.

I've attached an excel workbook I developed that helps to predict mash temperatures after the decoction is added back to the main mash.

View attachment decoction_workbook.xls

 

[manticle]

Great information there thankyou. I think I'll go for a single for my first attempt.