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MHB

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What exactly are you grouping as non-fermentables? Are you talking just crystal malts and roasted malts? (that's the impression that I'm getting).

If so, I would think that boiling any malts that aren't dehusked will lead to a shit ton (yes, that's a real unit of measurement) of tannins in the finished wort, and therefore a horrendously astringent beer. Or am I incorrect in that assumption? (I am basing that on the fact that sparging too hot allegedly lead to tannin extraction from malts that aren't dehusked, so boiling would be even worse)
Dam straight.
Give a classic Australian example, make Billy Tea, Cold Water, Tea, Sugar all in the billy, bring to a boil, hot rich sweet tea. Leave the sugar out and it could strip paint.
Point is that sugars in solution are blocking the tannins, maybe not completely but to a very large extent.
Same in a mash, just steeping grains in hot water will pull lots of tannins.
Also thing there is a lot more in some specialty malts than just what is water extractable, many have a bunch of starch and some proteins in them to, this needs mashing to be degraded or it will end up in the beer where it's guarinteed to cause haze problems.

I have been doing it for a while now since I read Gordon Strong's book. Here is his explanation.
Traditional Mash
In this approach, the dark grains are milled and mashed along with the rest of the grains in the grist. This approach can lead to harsher, more astringent flavors in the finished beer, especially if the water being used is very alkaline, high in bicarbonates, or has a relatively high pH. Using dark grains in a traditional mash exposes the grains to the highest amount of heat for the longest amount of time, and so is most likely to produce a harsher, more astringent character in the finished beer.
Snip
Silly reasoning, better to fix the carbonate problem, that's what doing water chemistry is all about - making water that is fit for the beer you want to make.
Guinness takes advantage of the acidity from the large amount of roast grain to lower the pH into the mashing range. If you tried to make a pale ale in Dublin water without a fair amount of water chemistry I suspect you wouldn't get what you wanted.

CWE (Cold Water Extract) used to be a fairly standard part of most COA's (Certificate Of Analysis) talking back when UK breweries did every thing in UK barrels and pounds so ancient history, these days its been replaced by more useful (to commercial) brewers parameters, I think a lot of home brewers would find it handy.
CWE was just the mass that went into solution when milled malt was soaked in cold water, mostly used for Crystal malts

If you want to brew good beer start with good water - good means appropriate the the beer you want to make.
Mark

Just realised that this is totally OT - bit like the rest of this thread!
M
 

Grok

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Point is that sugars in solution are blocking the tannins, maybe not completely but to a very large extent.
So if that is the case, then putting some Crystal malts in the boiling kettle may be an acceptable practice?
 

MHB

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Funny enough its what Graham Wheeler recommended in some of his earlier books (early 1980's), but it seams to have disappeared from his later work.
I wouldn't call it best practice, for a bunch of reasons.
Any unconverted starch or intact proteins wont get exposed to enzymes that can degrade them as they would in the mash. Leads to both lower yields and increased haze problems.
You will extract some tannins (polyphenols), the later in the process they are introduced the less chance there is to form complexes with proteins in the boil and get precipitated in trub.
The less crap in the bottom of the kettle, the more beer you get into the fermenter...
Mark
 

JDW81

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So if that is the case, then putting some Crystal malts in the boiling kettle may be an acceptable practice?
what would you be trying to achieve by putting crystal malt into the kettle?
 

Grok

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what would you be trying to achieve by putting crystal malt into the kettle?
A couple of things I suppose, because I'm pushing the limits of my mash tun capacity, I can only get a certain end volume, but if I can replace a bit of the unfermentable adjuncts with base malt, then I can squeeze a bit more volume out the the other end, and the other was a comment from my friend about getting a richer flavour impart from the crystal malts. I'm not sure about that myself, but I'll give it a go. Probably should just get a bigger mash tun....., but.......that means spending money! ;)
 
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A couple of things I suppose, because I'm pushing the limits of my mash tun capacity, I can only get a certain end volume, but if I can replace a bit of the unfermentable adjuncts with base malt, then I can squeeze a bit more volume out the the other end, and the other was a comment from my friend about getting a richer flavour impart from the crystal malts. I'm not sure about that myself, but I'll give it a go. Probably should just get a bigger mash tun....., but.......that means spending money! ;)
By the time you come to the last 15 - 20 minutes the level has dropped slightly leaving room for the non fermentables.
 

Sidney Harbour-Bridge

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What exactly are you grouping as non-fermentables? Are you talking just crystal malts and roasted malts? (that's the impression that I'm getting).

If so, I would think that boiling any malts that aren't dehusked will lead to a shit ton (yes, that's a real unit of measurement) of tannins in the finished wort, and therefore a horrendously astringent beer. Or am I incorrect in that assumption? (I am basing that on the fact that sparging too hot allegedly lead to tannin extraction from malts that aren't dehusked, so boiling would be even worse)
I was thinking similarly, roast malts would have unconverted starch too, surely they would need to mashed.
 

Grok

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(I am basing that on the fact that sparging too hot allegedly lead to tannin extraction from malts that aren't dehusked, so boiling would be even worse)
I adjust my 77 C sparge water to about 6pH or below which helps to stop tannins extraction according to J.J.Palmer.
 

goatchop41

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I adjust my 77 C sparge water to about 6pH or below which helps to stop tannins extraction according to J.J.Palmer.
But that is completely irrelevant to what I had said - the tannin extraction that I mentioned will come from the crystal malt that you are adding to the boil, due to the temperature
 

Grok

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But that is completely irrelevant to what I had said - the tannin extraction that I mentioned will come from the crystal malt that you are adding to the boil, due to the temperature
MHB said:
Point is that sugars in solution are blocking the tannins, maybe not completely but to a very large extent.
 

MHB

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Keep going with the rest of what I said...
The bit you have pulled out was talking about tea - teach me to try and use a example to make it easier to understand.
Any malt that isn't burnt to a cinder (say less than 1,000 EBC) really should be mashed. If its that well roasted all the starch, sugars, tannins.... will be destroyed it wont matter (in terms of what is extracted) when its added.
Apart from Roast Malt, anything paler or any water extract made from it, will need mashing.
Mark
 

Cian Doyle

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If you are using Brewers Friend tick the late addition box.
I have been following G. Strongs recipes and adding the none fermentables near the end of mash, didn't even realise there was a late addition box on BF. Checking just now it does make a slight difference to the gravity reading.
 

kadmium

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Hey guys, so I did my first brew on the Guten 40 yesterday. Really enjoyable and stress free. I've gone from pot on the stove to full pressure fermenting, guten 40 and kegerator... lockdown really makes you want a beer!

Anyway, the recipe I went with for an AG is one I have usually hit around 72% efficiency so I ran with the same recipe. My process and recipe is as follows:

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 26.96 L
Post Boil Volume: 23.96 L
Batch Size (fermenter): 21.00 L
Bottling Volume: 19.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.065 SG
Estimated Color: 58.9 EBC
Estimated IBU: 29.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 76.7 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name
4.20 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston)
1.00 kg Oats, Flaked (Briess) (2.8 EBC)
0.45 kg Chocolate (Briess) (689.5 EBC)
0.30 kg Caraaroma (256.1 EBC)
0.20 kg Maple Syrup [Boil] (69.0 EBC)
30.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 mi Hop
30.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil 30.0 mi Hop
1.0 pkg Denny's Favorite (Wyeast Labs #1450)
2.00 Items Vanilla Beans (Secondary 10.0 days)


Mash Schedule: BIAB, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 6.15 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Saccharification Add 30.60 L of water at 73.5 C 68.9 C 60 min
Mash Out Heat to 75.6 C over 7 min 75.6 C 10 min
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I adjusted my water using BruN Water as follows:
Gypsum 1.8g
Calcium Chloride 1.5g
Chalk 0.9g

for a final profile of:
Profiles (ppm)
Ca 49
SO4 34
Cl 40
HCO3 55

My mash PH was 5.44 (right where Brun predicted)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I started with 30 Litres (not 30.6) and ended up with 19 into the fermenter. So next time, I will start with closer to 32 litres hoping for 21ish into the fermenter.

I mashed at 67 for a full hour with recirc on, I stirred about 3 times lightly. The grain I bought crushed from KegLand (single pass not double like I usually went with BIAB) and I simply lifted the malt tube up and let drip for about 10 minutes while it came to the boil. I mashed out at 72C for some reason I had a brain failure and though it was a 72c mashout not 78c (could this be the culprit?)


The disappointing thing is my pre-boil OG was 1.050 and my OG was 1.058 which is 7 points low. Efficiency was 56%.

What tips do you guys have for running the Guten? Should I be mashing with 22litres and sparging with 10?

I am considering buying my own mill (for $100 it's not a bad investment if you think it's worth it) but what are your experiences on the gutens? I would prefer to do full volume if possible as it simplifies things, however I can easily do a batch sparge if you think it will increase things. I am not chasing huge numbers, but am hoping to hit a consistent figure and would love to be around the 65-70% mark (only a small cost to buy more grain, but it's a matter of wanting to nail the process)

Thanks guys!
 
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Hey guys, so I did my first brew on the Guten 40 yesterday. Really enjoyable and stress free. I've gone from pot on the stove to full pressure fermenting, guten 40 and kegerator... lockdown really makes you want a beer!

Anyway, the recipe I went with for an AG is one I have usually hit around 72% efficiency so I ran with the same recipe. My process and recipe is as follows:

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 26.96 L
Post Boil Volume: 23.96 L
Batch Size (fermenter): 21.00 L
Bottling Volume: 19.00 L
Estimated OG: 1.065 SG
Estimated Color: 58.9 EBC
Estimated IBU: 29.5 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 76.7 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name
4.20 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston)
1.00 kg Oats, Flaked (Briess) (2.8 EBC)
0.45 kg Chocolate (Briess) (689.5 EBC)
0.30 kg Caraaroma (256.1 EBC)
0.20 kg Maple Syrup [Boil] (69.0 EBC)
30.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 mi Hop
30.00 g East Kent Goldings (EKG) [5.00 %] - Boil 30.0 mi Hop
1.0 pkg Denny's Favorite (Wyeast Labs #1450)
2.00 Items Vanilla Beans (Secondary 10.0 days)


Mash Schedule: BIAB, Full Body
Total Grain Weight: 6.15 kg
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Saccharification Add 30.60 L of water at 73.5 C 68.9 C 60 min
Mash Out Heat to 75.6 C over 7 min 75.6 C 10 min
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I adjusted my water using BruN Water as follows:
Gypsum 1.8g
Calcium Chloride 1.5g
Chalk 0.9g

for a final profile of:
Profiles (ppm)
Ca 49
SO4 34
Cl 40
HCO3 55

My mash PH was 5.44 (right where Brun predicted)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I started with 30 Litres (not 30.6) and ended up with 19 into the fermenter. So next time, I will start with closer to 32 litres hoping for 21ish into the fermenter.

I mashed at 67 for a full hour with recirc on, I stirred about 3 times lightly. The grain I bought crushed from KegLand (single pass not double like I usually went with BIAB) and I simply lifted the malt tube up and let drip for about 10 minutes while it came to the boil. I mashed out at 72C for some reason I had a brain failure and though it was a 72c mashout not 78c (could this be the culprit?)


The disappointing thing is my pre-boil OG was 1.050 and my OG was 1.058 which is 7 points low. Efficiency was 56%.

What tips do you guys have for running the Guten? Should I be mashing with 22litres and sparging with 10?

I am considering buying my own mill (for $100 it's not a bad investment if you think it's worth it) but what are your experiences on the gutens? I would prefer to do full volume if possible as it simplifies things, however I can easily do a batch sparge if you think it will increase things. I am not chasing huge numbers, but am hoping to hit a consistent figure and would love to be around the 65-70% mark (only a small cost to buy more grain, but it's a matter of wanting to nail the process)

Thanks guys!
Your efficiency was set to high for a full volume mash, next time start off at 60% and make adjustments with each brew, you should come in around 60 to 65 % Adjust your grain bill to hit your target figures, with that grain bill you may need 34 litres. It is possible if you use some all thread fo the handle which will prevent any grain escaping into the kettle through the handle holes. All thread size is 5/16
 

kadmium

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So the realistic efficiency I can expect from full volume is 60%?

In that case would batch sparging help or for the few $$ in extra grain I just run at 60% and focus on nailing it.

Thoughts on a grain mill? Or is that just diminishing returns when only aiming for 60%
 
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So the realistic efficiency I can expect from full volume is 60%?

In that case would batch sparging help or for the few $$ in extra grain I just run at 60% and focus on nailing it.

Thoughts on a grain mill? Or is that just diminishing returns when only aiming for 60%
Your choice wheth to sparge or use a few dollars more grain, the 60% is a starting point you can improve on that.
 

Vic

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So the realistic efficiency I can expect from full volume is 60%?

In that case would batch sparging help or for the few $$ in extra grain I just run at 60% and focus on nailing it.

Thoughts on a grain mill? Or is that just diminishing returns when only aiming for 60%
Regardless of your efficiency, a grain mill makes sense if you purchase your base malts in 25Kg sacks.
 

kadmium

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Regardless of your efficiency, a grain mill makes sense if you purchase your base malts in 25Kg sacks.
Which I won't be doing cause I'd probably just buy it mixed but not milled. I was just thinking it's another variable reduced.

I already adjust water, do yeast starters, etc so just wanting to nail consistently repeatable results.

Not intending to start a shit show but what's the consistency of Keg Land or Keg King grain crush? Like, they talk about computer controlled grain measurement etc but what's the consistency like?

I guess I'm asking if a $90 grain mill is gonna be better than just paying to have it crushed. But at $3 a recipe it's only 30 brews and its paid for?
 

Cian Doyle

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Which I won't be doing cause I'd probably just buy it mixed but not milled. I was just thinking it's another variable reduced.

I already adjust water, do yeast starters, etc so just wanting to nail consistently repeatable results.

Not intending to start a shit show but what's the consistency of Keg Land or Keg King grain crush? Like, they talk about computer controlled grain measurement etc but what's the consistency like?

I guess I'm asking if a $90 grain mill is gonna be better than just paying to have it crushed. But at $3 a recipe it's only 30 brews and its paid for?
This is a recent thread on mills.
 

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