GUTEN

[Sjek]

Hi everyone, I have a question about the 70L Guten. Anyone tried a no sparge double batch of about 40L? I'm wondering if the unit is big enough to hold 9kg-10kg of grain, 55L-60L of liquid and still has enough head space to recirculate the wort..

Also, anyone used the mash programs for a delayed start so your strike water starts heating up an hour before you wake up in the morning? I was thinking that you could prep everything at night, turn on the unit with with the first mash steps being 8hrs at 20C and then the next step being your 70C strike temp. This way it would it would be idle overnight and start heating just before you wake up so you're ready to brew when rolling out of bed.
I heard the Guten starts beeping at the end of a mash step and it doesn't automatically go to the next mash step unless you press a button. If this is right the above delayed start idea wouldn't work..

 

[bird]

Hey sjek. I think you would be alright at 55lt plus 10kg of grain. 60lt might be pushing it. I haven't tried as I Sparge But on a 60lt batch I'll put 12 to 13 kg of grain and 45lt of strike water and be around the 54 to 55 lt mark. You might have to block the holes on the malt pipe like wiel does so the water doesn't bypass the grain while recircing.

 

[Fro-Daddy]

@Sjek I have done a double batch of a dark mild (3.5%) with no sparge on my 70L, putting 44L in to two cubes.
Due to the sight glass, you can only fit 67L in the unit. So when you use your software, just make sure that total water + grain is less than that and you will be fine.

 

[Sjek]

Hey sjek. I think you would be alright at 55lt plus 10kg of grain. 60lt might be pushing it. I haven't tried as I Sparge But on a 60lt batch I'll put 12 to 13 kg of grain and 45lt of strike water and be around the 54 to 55 lt mark. You might have to block the holes on the malt pipe like wiel does so the water doesn't bypass the grain while recircing.

Thanks Bird. I guess WEAL simply uses a small silicon bung for that?

And how about the mash steps, do you have to push a button to go to the next step or does the unit automatically go to the next step?

btw 12-13kg of grain would give you 60L of about 1.040 - 1.045 wort?

@Sjek I have done a double batch of a dark mild (3.5%) with no sparge on my 70L, putting 44L in to two cubes.
Due to the sight glass, you can only fit 67L in the unit. So when you use your software, just make sure that total water + grain is less than that and you will be fine.

Thanks Fro. I was thinking you'd need filling well under the top level of the malt pipe to allow for the water/wort level to rise when recirculating?

 

[bird]

Thanks Bird. I guess WEAL simply uses a small silicon bung for that?

And how about the mash steps, do you have to push a button to go to the next step or does the unit automatically go to the next step?

btw 12-13kg of grain would give you 60L of about 1.040 - 1.045 wort?

Think weal runs a price of ss threaded rod and nuts to secure it.

Have never used the mash steps only manual mode.

Yeah generally around 1.046 with sparging I can get up-to 80percent Efficiency but with full volume I think efficiency takes a hit.

 

[Fro-Daddy]

This is 58L of water and 9.5kg of grain. Once the recirculation starts the level drops slightly, and if you have good flow through the grain bed you shouldn't run in to a problem.
You can only fill up to the holes in the malt pipe unless you block them with something like WEAL does or prop the malt pipe up.

 

[Sjek]

Cheers Fro. Good to see you can do a ~5% beer no sparge double batch. That might get me over the line to update my current system. If i can delay the start that would seal the deal for sure. I believe the Brewzilla is able to do that, it's good feature for time poor people.

 

[Fro-Daddy]

I'm pretty confident you can delay the start, but I only use manual mode and do other things while heating water.

 

[kadmium]

Cheers Fro. Good to see you can do a ~5% beer no sparge double batch. That might get me over the line to update my current system. If i can delay the start that would seal the deal for sure. I believe the Brewzilla is able to do that, it's good feature for time poor people.

I'm pretty sure the Guten only pauses before mashing out into the boil step to make sure you're there.

I have a series of steps on mine (70 strike, 67 mash, 76 MO) with 1 minute pauses in between with power varied. Never press button other than to go to boil from what I remember. Think it's for safety.

I would program it like this if I were you:

1. 5c @ 100w (8 hours or what ever you need)
2. Strike @ 2500w (1 minute)
3. Mash @ 1000w (60 or what ever)
4. Mash Out @ 2500w (1 minute)
5. Mash Out @ 1000w (10 m)
6. 99.5 @ 2500w (1 minute)
7. Boil @ 2000w (60 or what ever)

The reason for the 1m steps is so that you can go full whack power to ramp temps, but you don't want to mash at 2500w so by putting a 1 minute step it will ramp to mash out at 2500w, hold for a minute then drop to 1000w.

The difference between the Guten and Robo (unless they updated it) is you need to make your step times inclusive of heating time as the robo starts timing straight away. The guten only starts once it hits temps.

Thats just indicative of my own single temp mash with Mash Out, but hopefully you get the idea.

Edit: you can obly have 1 boil step which is why the 99.5 step.

 

[Fro-Daddy]

I think the steps can be a maximum of 3 hours each, so if you wanted to do it overnight, you may need to replicate step 1 above a few times.
The 1 minute steps are a great idea, never considered that. You can also bump it up to 3000w on the 70L.

 

[kadmium]

I think the steps can be a maximum of 3 hours each, so if you wanted to do it overnight, you may need to replicate step 1 above a few times.
The 1 minute steps are a great idea, never considered that. You can also bump it up to 3000w on the 70L.

Makes me want to do a Tim The Tool Man grunt with 3000w nice!

Edit: Just checked my 40L and can only do 3 hour steps. I believe you can do up to 9 steps though so can still work.

Other option is it can save recipes, you can have a recipe to just do the waiting and then heat, and when you wake up go and switch it to your brew recipe if you needed more steps.

 

[Sjek]

I'm pretty sure the Guten only pauses before mashing out into the boil step to make sure you're there.

I have a series of steps on mine (70 strike, 67 mash, 76 MO) with 1 minute pauses in between with power varied. Never press button other than to go to boil from what I remember. Think it's for safety.

I would program it like this if I were you:

1. 5c @ 100w (8 hours or what ever you need)
2. Strike @ 2500w (1 minute)
3. Mash @ 1000w (60 or what ever)
4. Mash Out @ 2500w (1 minute)
5. Mash Out @ 1000w (10 m)
6. 99.5 @ 2500w (1 minute)
7. Boil @ 2000w (60 or what ever)

The reason for the 1m steps is so that you can go full whack power to ramp temps, but you don't want to mash at 2500w so by putting a 1 minute step it will ramp to mash out at 2500w, hold for a minute then drop to 1000w.

The difference between the Guten and Robo (unless they updated it) is you need to make your step times inclusive of heating time as the robo starts timing straight away. The guten only starts once it hits temps.

Thats just indicative of my own single temp mash with Mash Out, but hopefully you get the idea.

Edit: you can obly have 1 boil step which is why the 99.5 step.

Excellent, this was exactly what I was thinking. And yes, if max step time is 3hrs then just repeat step 1 three times. Funny that it is possible, I had emailed KegKing with this question and they said it wasn't possible bc you have to press a button between steps. Great to hear this is actually not the case. If it automatically transitions to the next mash step without having to press any button, the 'idle steps' can simply be programmed as low temp mash steps

 

[kadmium]

Excellent, this was exactly what I was thinking. And yes, if max step time is 3hrs then just repeat step 1 three times. Funny that it is possible, I had emailed KegKing with this question and they said it wasn't possible bc you have to press a button between steps. Great to hear this is actually not the case. If it automatically transitions to the next mash step without having to press any button, the 'idle steps' can simply be programmed as low temp mash steps

Now you have me questioning my own sanity but pretty sure it does cause I used it as a Sous Vide and if I don't pay attention it ends the step and turns off.

What I will do is go turn mine on now and report back in a few hours.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Excellent, this was exactly what I was thinking. And yes, if max step time is 3hrs then just repeat step 1 three times. Funny that it is possible, I had emailed KegKing with this question and they said it wasn't possible bc you have to press a button between steps. Great to hear this is actually not the case. If it automatically transitions to the next mash step without having to press any button, the 'idle steps' can simply be programmed as low temp mash steps

I don't think you do have to press anything until mash out to boil, there does seem to be a pause not sure if the alarm sounds between each change.
Once you are comfortable with it you can remove the overflow pipe especially if it is a particularly fluid mash or full volume. I use the threaded rod to prevent grain going through the handle holes on full volume.

I just put a plug in where the overflow pipe was.

I leave the non fermentables out until the last 20 minutes, this also gives time for the base malts to soak up some liquor leaving room for the non fermentables.

 

[Sjek]

I don't think you do have to press anything until mash out to boil, there does seem to be a pause not sure if the alarm sounds between each change.
Once you are comfortable with it you can remove the overflow pipe especially if it is a particularly fluid mash or full volume. I use the threaded rod to prevent grain going through the handle holes on full volume.

I just put a plug in where the overflow pipe was.

I leave the non fermentables out until the last 20 minutes, this also gives time for the base malts to soak up some liquor leaving room for the non fermentables.

Cheers Weal. Doesn't look like there's much room to recirculate in that batch haha.

I've got the very first generation of the Robobrew when KegKing still did them. These don't have a pump or overflow. I've been running a pump on the side but never missed the overflow. Just wait 10 mins after mash-in before running the pump to ensure good flow through the grainbed and then don't go crazy and run the pump at restricted flow.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Cheers Weal. Doesn't look like there's much room to recirculate in that batch haha.

I've got the very first generation of the Robobrew when KegKing still did them. These don't have a pump or overflow. I've been running a pump on the side but never missed the overflow. Just wait 10 mins after mash-in before running the pump to ensure good flow through the grainbed and then don't go crazy and run the pump at restricted flow.

Well a stir every 15 minutes does wonders, can still be done with the overflow in but a darned sight easier with it gone.

 

[Fergy1987]

Hey, just wondering if someone can explain to me the best way to setup the overflow pipe for the guten. Is there a grain size limit where you would have the small portion at the bottom and then the large pipe at the top? I last brewed with the large pipe at the bottom and the top screen didnt even touch the grainbed so I just didnt use it. But I am worried about using the small pipe at the bottom and finding out the hard way my grain bill is too large and it gets buried under it.

 

[kadmium]

Hey, just wondering if someone can explain to me the best way to setup the overflow pipe for the guten. Is there a grain size limit where you would have the small portion at the bottom and then the large pipe at the top? I last brewed with the large pipe at the bottom and the top screen didnt even touch the grainbed so I just didnt use it. But I am worried about using the small pipe at the bottom and finding out the hard way my grain bill is too large and it gets buried under it.

I use them both, small pipe on the bottom then the long pipe ontop, that way the joint is a fair way down and the screen sits on the grainbed. I believe there is a threaded piece that joins both the small and long pipe together.

 

[sp0rk]

I'll let you in on a little secret
I always use the full length...
When I set my pump to recirculate, I just stand there for 5 minutes and slow the flow (with the ball valve) until I get a balance between fastest flow and a stable level on top of the grain

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Hey, just wondering if someone can explain to me the best way to setup the overflow pipe for the guten. Is there a grain size limit where you would have the small portion at the bottom and then the large pipe at the top? I last brewed with the large pipe at the bottom and the top screen didnt even touch the grainbed so I just didnt use it. But I am worried about using the small pipe at the bottom and finding out the hard way my grain bill is too large and it gets buried under it.

Not a grain bill limit but a volume, the size is for different volume as mentioned above you should have a straight connector to fit the small and large pipe together. Remember it is an overflow pipe, that is its purpose. The last thing you want is wort going down the overflow pipe and not through the wort. Top screen serves no purpose, you don't need that, if you mash with a more fluid mash you can get rid of the overflow pipe too.

 

[kadmium]

In my opinion, and in the way I used it, I like the top screen. I have found that if I just run my silicone hose onto the grain bed, if I don't pay attention it can drill down into the mash bed. So, for me, I use to top screen.

In WEALs opinion, it's not needed, so do what works for you.

 

[goatchop41]

Top screen serves no purpose, you don't need that.

Well, the fact that pretty much all of the AIO brewing systems have one tells us that it clearly has a purpose. So I would have to disagree with you there.

I'm with @kadmium on this - without the top screen, the recirculation can bore a hole in to the grain bed and start to cause channelling. The top plate prevents that and helps to better distribute both the recirculation and sparge water

 

[kadmium]

I think its more when people talk in absolutes. Don't just say "this is not needed" preface it with "in my opinion" or "I have found" and then quantify it with some anecdotal evidence to show how you formed the opinion.

I have found the top plate isn't needed because...


Not just, "top screen serves no purpose"

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Well, the fact that pretty much all of the AIO brewing systems have one tells us that it clearly has a purpose. So I would have to disagree with you there.

I'm with @kadmium on this - without the top screen, the recirculation can bore a hole in to the grain bed and start to cause channelling. The top plate prevents that and helps to better distribute both the recirculation and sparge water

It has no purpose whatsoever, it prevents any stirring, (which I have been doing and increasing my efficiency) if one has a fluid mash then the return pipe is under the the level of the mash, so not boring any holes in anything.
There are more reasons not to have a top screen than to have a top screen.
Just look at the latest model, that has a cam lock coupler with a barb and silicone hose, can't see that boring holes and chanelling.

 

[mje1980]

FWIW I’ve never used the top screen in my robo. I choke the pump down to a fairly slow flow for recirc.

 

[Reg Holt]

Another no top screen user here, also found to get better efficiency with regular stirring.

 

[kadmium]

Depends on how you brew. If you go full volume sure maybe, but to categorically state "there is no need" is just foolish.

Express your opinion as your own but don't make sweeping generalised statements on behalf of all guten users.

 

[golfandbrew]

I find my overflow pipe does it's best work on the shelf. Sealed the hole up with 1/2 inch plug and nut. It's only purpose is a fail safe to prevent running the kettle dry. Better to be a responsible brewer and keep and eye on what is happening rather than relying on your machine to do this for you. I have found the handles on the top screen to be a good guide on when to throttle the recirc up or down. If the wort is over the handles I throttle down, or wait for it...remove the top screen and stir. Just because the screen is there doesn't mean it has to stay there. If there isn't much wort above the screen then I throttle the recirc faster.
Not using the overflow pipe also makes stirring easier. After you have removed the top screen of course.
Also feels like its better to stir the mash for even heat distribution rather than let all your wort being measured by the thermometer in the bottom of the kettle go right back down the overflow pipe.
I'll recirc without stirring the last 15-20 minutes to help clear the wort before sparging. If it takes longer clear, it takes longer to clear.

 

[mje1980]

I don't think you do have to press anything until mash out to boil, there does seem to be a pause not sure if the alarm sounds between each change.
Once you are comfortable with it you can remove the overflow pipe especially if it is a particularly fluid mash or full volume. I use the threaded rod to prevent grain going through the handle holes on full volume.
View attachment 119072
I just put a plug in where the overflow pipe was.

I leave the non fermentables out until the last 20 minutes, this also gives time for the base malts to soak up some liquor leaving room for the non fermentables.
View attachment 119073

I’m going to try that on my brewzilla cheers. I’ve never had a batch that looked like over flowing and it’d be good to give the mash an occasional stir, particularly with adjunct beers.

 

[Fro-Daddy]

No top screen, no overflow pipe, works best for me.