Get into O2 guys, if you're serious about nicer beer

[technobabble66]

With the hydrogen peroxide thing, when added to wort, is there a risk of producing the type of oxidation HSA is meant to produce?
Just thinking of trying it also. I generally brew over gravity, cube, then dilute out into the FV, anywhere from 0.5L to 5L extra tap water. So I'm thinking I'd probably be ~ using 2-3L, that probably won't be prepared overnight, or even if it was there'd still be a fair bit of H2O2 left in it by the time it goes into the wort. Also, 2/3rds of the time the wort would've been poured straight onto the yeastcake.
Just trying to make sure I don't end up with a dud batch!

 

[Batz]

Well back in the olden days, Oxy welding O2 had a lot of moisture in it and could contain lubricant particles from the compressors.
I'm hoping that current technology is much cleaner than way back then, but how clean?


O2 is O2 sure but what OTHER than O2 is present in industrial gases?

The difference between commercial grade and food grade is usually the latter doesn't contain impurities, same applies here surely.

Edit: Doesn't mean I'm not going to use industrial grade - just means I'll be aware it may not be as "clean" as medical grade

Bullshit.

I worked for many years at C.I.G. now B.O.C. Both 02 and C02 commercial and medical grades came from the same
cryogenic tanks. The bottles where all filled together, and there was no special procedures taken for medical grade either.
When you produce 02 you do it medical grade and in large volumes, it would be stupid to produce two different grades of gas. Pay more if it makes you feel all fuzzy, that's why they have different bottles.

and could contain lubricant particles from the compressors

Have you any idea what would happen if you where to use lubricant on an 02 compressor? We went to great lengths to stop this. Even our tools and hands were placed under black lights to make certain they were lubricant free.

Batz

 

[Zorco]

Bullshit.

I worked for many years at C.I.G. now B.O.C. Both 02 and C02 commercial and medical grades came from the same
cryogenic tanks. The bottles where all filled together, and there was no special procedures taken for medical grade either.
When you produce 02 you do it medical grade and in large volumes, it would be stupid to produce two different grades of gas. Pay more if it makes you feel all fuzzy, that's why they have different bottles.




Have you any idea what would happen if you where to use lubricant on an 02 compressor? We went to great lengths to stop this. Even our tools and hands were placed under black lights to make certain they were lubricant free.

Batz

Batz has spoken.

I'm with batz.......he don't need/want me.... but I'm gettin' close to this shit ^^^^^^^^^ Coz True

 

[Goose]

Bullshit.

I worked for many years at C.I.G. now B.O.C. Both 02 and C02 commercial and medical grades came from the same
cryogenic tanks. The bottles where all filled together, and there was no special procedures taken for medical grade either.
When you produce 02 you do it medical grade and in large volumes, it would be stupid to produce two different grades of gas. Pay more if it makes you feel all fuzzy, that's why they have different bottles.

Google said that its not so much about the quality of the product (as you point out), but the custody chain of the tanks, which makes sense and why the medical grade bottles cost more.

"The difference between the four various oxygen grades, (Aviation, Medical, Welding and Research) is not in the quality of the oxygen but rather, the custody chain of the tanks.
Here's the issue: If a welding tank is used, but it's a rotated or swapped out tank, you will not know if the tank has been left open allowing contaminants to enter the tank. To then use that tank for medical applications would not be good, as impurities could be expelled from the tank. "

Fair point, Well I still like feeling all fuzzy and warm inside, particularly since one bottle lasts donkeys years....

 

[Batz]

And did Google say that happens in Australia?

With so much misinformation thrown around without a proper search on AHB these days I'm not surprised it's (AHB that is) going down the shute.
Does supposedly food-grade C02 ring a bell????
No more responses from me on this topic.

Agree Pete, I've had enough.

 

[TidalPete]

Batz, on 30 Oct 2016 - 4:44 PM, said:



Bullshit.

I worked for many years at C.I.G. now B.O.C. Both 02 and C02 commercial and medical grades came from the same
cryogenic tanks. The bottles where all filled together, and there was no special procedures taken for medical grade either.
When you produce 02 you do it medical grade and in large volumes, it would be stupid to produce two different grades of gas. Pay more if it makes you feel all fuzzy, that's why they have different bottles.




Have you any idea what would happen if you where to use lubricant on an 02 compressor? We went to great lengths to stop this. Even our tools and hands were placed under black lights to make certain they were lubricant free.

Batz

I'm with you on this one Batz.
Your info on this subject has always been spot-on & AHB newbs should learn a little more by using the Search Function before going off half-arsed. :lol:

Probably have not stood by my word in Post *41 earlier but thanks to your knowledgeable info in the quote above I can now be seen to be VINDICATED! :beerbang: :beerbang:

 

[Zorco]

Breathe...... Maintain the truth.... Don't give up..... Don't **** off..... Persist. Counter differing opinion with persistence and rational debate. AHB will be a better place.

Proof: Cosdog knows how to stand alone and then see the truth come clear to all eventually.


Edit: Less antagonistic.

 

[Adr_0]

I actually thought the medical grade (C size I think?) had the square valve on top to be coupled with the plumbing in ambulances and hospitals. I thought it was more to do with the size and fittings than the product inside... Whereas the industrial had different cylinder sizes (G for example) and valves/fittings.

My memory from BOC (I'm too young for CIG) is pretty foggy but there is indeed only one tank for everything, which was just to the south and across the road from the smaller argon vessel...

 

[Goose]

And did Google say that happens in Australia?

Well I am sure there must be an AS publication that covers it. I doubt a hospital would accept cylinders used for industrial or even food applications, even if the Batz authority says the stuff inside is the same.

Anyway I'm upgrading to aviation grade, for maximum fuzziness.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

I Think of it like stainless steel. Its awesome, dependable, sanitary. Do you need to get the medical grade SS? No.

Honestly what can be feared? I don't think there is anything to be feared. What do they pump into scuba tanks mix? etc.
Fish are far easier to harm than people and they use welding O2 for Aquaculture.
As for flavours I think I started a thread when I first tried injected O2 in my brews. A soapy flavour but I must go on record that it wasn't the welding grade O2. It was a new yeast strain I just didn't like.
It gets a good polish on your beers.
Welding grade O2. It really does just take a tiny amount. This is the thing. Its pure O2. Like a tiny bit of catalyst.
$0.02

 

[Goose]

I Think of it like stainless steel. Its awesome, dependable, sanitary. Do you need to get the medical grade SS? No.

Honestly what can be feared? I don't think there is anything to be feared. What do they pump into scuba tanks? etc.

I think of it like insurance. You probably don't need it, but there are also many things we do in making beer that we probably don't need to do either, but we do it by personal choice.

I fully agree we are home brewers and are not surgeons or paramedics, but the latter do not use O2 cylinders from Bunnings for a reason.

 

[Crusty]

I think of it like insurance. You probably don't need it, but there are also many things we do in making beer that we probably don't need to do either, but we do it by personal choice.

I fully agree we are home brewers and are not surgeons or paramedics, but the latter do not use O2 cylinders from Bunnings for a reason.

I wasn't going to weigh in on this debate as it's been discussed before several times but O2 is O2 & all cylinders get filled from the same source.
Medical grade O2 actually contains water as it's needed to stop the nasal passages from drying up when being administered. The medical grade certification is absolute bullshit & it's all to do with legislation & just another way the Government can lay down the path for certification, regulation & of course, money. For this reason & this reason alone, it's the certification that will cost you more but it's the same stuff. In saying that though, I'm certainly not knocking your decision to choose the medical grade O2, your choice, your money & if it makes you feel more comfortable having that certification, then all good & well but the O2 I'm putting into my beer is not of less quality than your using, your just paying more. I took out 1st place in the Lager category at the North Coast National home brew & spirit comp this month & I used my Bunnings O2 setup. Certainly nothing detected in that beer from an industrial source. I scored a 2nd place for my Rum as well...... h34r:
It may be just a pumpkin scone certified comp but around 80 brewers entered this year & I'm happy to take the win & a 2nd place.

 

[big78sam]

OP inspired me. Went to masters and bought a benzomatic o2 cylinder for 22 bucks down from 36. I would have bought 2 but they only had 1 left.

Craftbrewer sell regulators designed for these cylinders so i rang them and asked about industrial versus food grade. They said its no issue using them so thats good enough for me.

 

[Coodgee]

OP inspired me. Went to masters and bought a benzomatic o2 cylinder for 22 bucks down from 36. I would have bought 2 but they only had 1 left.

Craftbrewer sell regulators designed for these cylinders so i rang them and asked about industrial versus food grade. They said its no issue using them so thats good enough for me.

I have weighed up that option and I think it is likely to be expensive in the long term and it will shit me when I run out of gas. As I understand you don't get much gas in those little disposable ones. also consider that masters won't be around for long so the canisters might be hard to get a hold of.

 

[Jack of all biers]

O2 aeration is good, but if you are doing kits there is a very easy, safe and cheap way of getting good amounts of O2 into the fermenter.

I have a 15L cube that I fill with filtered water and a small amount of hydrogen peroxide. Chill the cube overnight. When doing kits or partial boil with extract, use this cold oxygenated water to top up the fermenter once to concentrated wort has been dissolved.

Hydrogen peroxide only costs about $4 for 100ml from the local chemist, which is enough for about 5-10 batches. Bigger bottles and higher concentrations are also available, if you want to reduce the cost even further.

Peteru, your post got me wondering on the whole adding O2 via H2O2 method and whether it could be employed on AG brewing also. Potentially adding a calculated amount of H2O2 to cooled wort (less than 25C) in the FV to oxygenate it prior to adding the yeast starter. I'm guessing it would take more time that O2 gas addition, but would be a lot cheaper in initial outlay and ongoing cost.

If all of the H2O2 breaks down into H2O and O2 (2H2O2 > 2H2O + O2) the yield is close to 50%, so your yield of O2 would be 0.6g

A bit of a surprise, but it looks like there is plenty of O2 available.
The only question being, is it breaking down or are you still getting most of it going into the brew as peroxide that will damage yeast, I suspect the answer is a bit of a mixture, but from your observations a fair fraction appears to be breaking down and going into the brew.

Have to give this a bit more thought.

Especially once MHB had done the numbers, although having done a little internet research, I'm not sure even 50% of the H2O2 would break down overnight in your water as the decomposition of H2O2 is quite variable. I'm thinking that once it is added to the wort then the speed of decomposition into H2O and O2 would greatly increase. Once yeast is added this would increase the rate again, as per Adro's link (if any H2O2 were even left after contact with the wort). So once the H2O2 solution is added to the wort the O2 level should theoretically increase. Right?

Fauldings brand 3% Hydrogen Peroxide at around $4.50 for 200ml

I always have a couple of bottles around, mostly for treating ingrowing toenails. Might give it a go with my next brew.

hydrogen peroxide.JPG

My only counter thought is that normally H2O2 (as linked by Bribie above) has stabilizers added to keep the H2O2 from decomposing in the container before you the consumer use it. A quick internet search reveals a lot of scare mongering out there about such stabilizers, but no proof or links to research. That being said, most producers are not producing H2O2 solutions for ingestion by humans, so it is hard to know the health implications of consuming said stabilizers (drunk by the end user of the beer, as opposed to a mouth wash that is spat out again).

H2O2 is sold without stabilizers (sold as "Food grade" Hydrogen peroxide), but I'd wonder about the percentage (35%) they claim and how long it would last in its packaging without the stabilizers added (H2O2 is more stable in cold and acidic conditions). Also the stabilizer free H2O2 is sold at rates like $13 per 236 ml of 3% solution online which is a fair bit more expensive than the pharmacy bought one at $4 to $5.

Don't get me wrong, I am very interested by the use of H2O2 to oxygenate the wort (so much so that I'd like to try it), but am wondering if there is more info/knowledge out there about about the different reactions (positive and negative) between the different stabilizer additives with the wort and any by-products/effects on the fermentation/end product. Adding chemicals to wort that I don't know anything about keeps me from trying this one until someone can point me in the right direction. So with that in mind can someone who has a better mind for chemistry look at the below info I found at this site www.h2o2.com/faqs/FaqDetail.aspx?fId=11 and tell us if any of those stabilizers are a potential issue?

"Most commercial grades of H2O2 contain chelants and sequestrants which minimize its decomposition under normal storage and handling conditions.
The types of stabilizers used in H2O2 vary between producers and product grades. Common stabilizers include:

• Colloidal stannate and sodium pyrophosphate (present at 25 - 250 mg/L) are traditional mainstays.
• Organophosphonates (e.g., Monsanto's Dequest products) are increasingly common.
• Nitrate (for pH adjustment and corrosion inhibition) and phosphoric acid (for pH adjustment) also are used.
• Colloidal silicate is used to sequester metals and thereby minimize H2O2 decomposition in certain applications that depend on the bleaching ability of H2O2 in alkali.

In some applications, a high degree of stabilization is needed; whereas, in others (e.g., drinking water treatment or semiconductor manufacture) product purity is more important. For most environmental applications, H2O2 stabilization does not affect product performance."

 

[Dave70]

Lets be clear. This is the animal we're talking about right?
If so, I'm spewing. I've been wasting it on cutting and welding projects when I could have had better beers for ******* years now..

 

[abyss]

I Think of it like stainless steel. Its awesome, dependable, sanitary. Do you need to get the medical grade SS? No.
Honestly what can be feared? I don't think there is anything to be feared. What do they pump into scuba tanks mix? etc.
Fish are far easier to harm than people and they use welding O2 for Aquaculture.
As for flavours I think I started a thread when I first tried injected O2 in my brews. A soapy flavour but I must go on record that it wasn't the welding grade O2. It was a new yeast strain I just didn't like.
It gets a good polish on your beers.
Welding grade O2. It really does just take a tiny amount. This is the thing. Its pure O2. Like a tiny bit of catalyst.
$0.02

Don't fear Ive had the bends a few times and the first time I was in the decompression chamber at the Mallacoota Abalone co op when they ran out of medical O2 and the locals brought in a few welding bottles to keep me going. It tasted the same to me and I'm still alive and drinking.

 

[abyss]

Lets be clear. This is the animal we're talking about right?
If so, I'm spewing. I've been wasting it on cutting and welding projects when I could have had better beers for ******* years now..

That's the shit Dave.

 

[Dave70]

That's the shit Dave.

Splendid!

Now one of these and I'm good to go.

 

[Radshoes]

Lets be clear. This is the animal we're talking about right?
If so, I'm spewing. I've been wasting it on cutting and welding projects when I could have had better beers for ******* years now..

YEP JUST DIP THAT IN YOUR FERMENTER AND YOU WILL HAVE BETTER BEERS