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Fcuck you Tasmania

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niftinev said:
I never layed total blame on the gov. just that it was there decision that provided one of the final nails in the coffin in regards to the car industry and your trolley may be full of Brazilian oranges and American peanut butter but mine isn't. You just keep buying everything from overseas it'll help fix the prob. and yes I own and drive an aussie made car. It's good to hear you think all aussie made cars are rubbish, what a great help!
Buy Australian if you can it will help.
Don't take it personally nev, I was just speaking in the broader sense. I'm as guilty as the next guy for shopping offshore, I thought I made that obvious.
Good on you for buying a Australian made car, hope your happy with it. On balance I've found Toyota's to be far better built, better resale and more reliable.
The government may have nailed the lid shut on the coffin, but the body was on death row way before that. If a robot can do your job quicker, cheaper and with more precision, your days are numbered.
 
Dave70 said:
The government may have nailed the lid shut on the coffin, but the body was on death row way before that. If a robot can do your job quicker, cheaper and with more precision, your days are numbered.
So here is where I think the role of Government sits; to assist communities affected by industrial shifts like this to develop new industries that are economically viable without being continually propped up. I'm yet to see it done well. Geelong is a community with similar problems & the last Federal Gov responded by setting up the NDIS headquarters in Geelong. This might assist by attracting people to the area, but your average Ford production line worker won't necessarily get work with the NDIS, or within a service/supporting industry.
It's a tough ask; find and bankroll a viable industry that won't only support future generations, but also the people immediately affected by the demise of the outgoing industry.

I think the only sensible answer in Tasmania is for the Government to subsidise a lumberjack porn industry.
 
Don't take it personally nev, I was just speaking in the broader sense. I'm as guilty as the next guy for shopping offshore, I thought I made that obvious.
Good on you for buying a Australian made car, hope your happy with it. On balance I've found Toyota's to be far better built, better resale and more reliable.
The government may have nailed the lid shut on the coffin, but the body was on death row way before that. If a robot can do your job quicker, cheaper and with more precision, your days are numbered.
nah not taking it personally just think sometimes we need to help our own and I hate not having good choices
sick of this made in china crap just so multi nationals can make more money
and I hate companies that bring goods in from another country then send them onto us as made in or product of that country not china, yes Heinz your part of it.
If i wanted to eat food grown in **** I'd **** in my own vege patch not need someone elses
I've seen and had to use enough poor quality goods it's made me sick
i'm just a poor pensioner now so maybe I can start up a benevolent society so all you good people here will help me out(donate) as well as the man who wants to become a brewer.
Nah **** off it's great. I will survive!

cheers Dave
 
wish I was a greenie doo gooder ....I would have read this thread instead of skipping to the end

im going to have a beer and chop some wood
 
Prince Imperial said:
I think the only sensible answer in Tasmania is for the Government to subsidise a lumberjack porn industry.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL7n5mEmXJo

I couldn't resist.
 
Dave70 said:
No, not really, but fair to assume what works in a country of 330 million may not necessarily translate to a country of 23 million. But I think the secret is in the attitude more than anything. Obviously all Americans don't buy local exclusively, but its far more ingrained into their culture. It's idealistic to think buying local is some kind of economic panacea, but its good place to start.

What I do know for a fact is I have a customer who can get his structural steel manufactured, galvanized and shipped over from China ready to install for less of the cost of even getting it fabricated locally. Barangaroo is pretty much full of imported, pre fab, made in China steel. If governments want to stick their beaks in, here's an area begging for it. Its ******* killing the industry.
It is about value add.

If you are building houses out of cheap pre-fab steel from o/s you are definitely hurting the economy. There isn't any real value add on that which justifies taking the equivalent activity from the local economy.
If you are holding off imported steel with tarriffs and that steel is required to build a tomato canning factory, forcing the tomato canning factory to be built more expensive and slower and not be able to afford modern cost saving technology, then you are kicking back a genuine opportunity to add exponential value to that steel and make some real money.
It'd make sense to me if they wanted to log selectively and let's say set up a furniture industry, building timber, flooring etc that'd add real value, sell the labour of the workers making that stuff. They could dig into the foliage and set up a herbal products industry. Attract some brains in and really put people to work, it'd involve working harder though.

This idea that tassie forests are about to be turned into wood chips is what rankles the greenie. It is bare subsistence industry. You're not lifting anyone out of that. This is bare minimum lip service at the cost of turning trees into wood chip. Leave that low value harvesting alone. It's the attitude of minimum effort for low margin income on a large scale that is repulsive.
 
What I do know for a fact is I have a customer who can get his structural steel manufactured, galvanized and shipped over from China ready to install for less of the cost of even getting it fabricated locally. Barangaroo is pretty much full of imported, pre fab, made in China steel. If governments want to stick their beaks in, here's an area begging for it. Its ******* killing the industry.
It'll probabably bite them on the arse in the long run as it is some of the worst steel you can get and don't believe anything they tell you as they think 9001 gives it quality it is only a measure of everything being made exactly the same ie if the quality of materials is poor your final product will be poor
 
practicalfool said:
This idea that tassie forests are about to be turned into wood chips is what rankles the greenie. It is bare subsistence industry. You're not lifting anyone out of that. This is bare minimum lip service at the cost of turning trees into wood chip. Leave that low value harvesting alone. It's the attitude of minimum effort for low margin income on a large scale that is repulsive.
It's also not the only thing we do here. To an extent it is where gunns was pushing the industry but it most certainly was not the only use of our trees.
One of my many hats is that of bushfire hazard assessor. I recently did a job for the local sawmiller in a regional Tasmanian town. He was building an office for his new concrete batching plant. Sounds like he's diversifying right? Well not quite. He had to close the sawmill and lay off the 5 blokes that worked for him because he couldn't get logs thank to all the forest peace deals. So now he's able to scratch out a decent living for his family but what about the other 5 blokes? Unemployed now.
Also did a small mining lease survey for yet another small regional sawmiller. Same story, he's going to sell pebbles and the like from his land while the sawmill sits and rots and the 4 blokes that used to work for him now look for work.
Both these mills were profitable, busy mills 5 or 10 years ago. Both, this year, still had excellent pre orders from local customers. The first guy had an excellent contract selling flooring. Price of logs went up due to availability and he was priced out of the market by imports.
So by all means, hate on woodchips if you must (if you promise not to print emails or read books or wipe your arse anymore) but for goodness sake let us grow timber.
 
I don't see why they can't recycle the tons of newsprint and packaging cardboard into more paper. Of course you have to keep topping it up with more raw plant material. There is also thousands of hectares under cultivation in Australia with grasses (wheat, barley...) producing tons of waste fibre. Are you really justifying logging forests for paper? Wasn't someone whinging about having to sort their recycling on this forum just days ago.

Really sad about genuine timber business going out of business due to being locked out of the market, I'm sure the small guys will gain with these changes but the lions share of the damage and the profits will be on the hands of the 'gunns'. And they don't truly give a ****, do they?
 
Not For Horses said:
So by all means, hate on woodchips if you must (if you promise not to print emails or read books or wipe your arse anymore) but for goodness sake let us grow timber.
I'd happily print/wipe/read with hemp based papers & I understand as a crop it's higher yielding (per acre) & obviously has a faster growth cycle.
 
Yep that is true, hemp is a far better crop for a few of those applications. But do you think they'd let us grow the stuff here? It's easier to grow poppies than it is hemp. Can't be grown in a paddock visible from a public road, can't be grown within 5km of a school plus many other regulations that I've not properly read.
The point I was making was about saw logs. I'm not a fan of a chip industry at all.
I most certainly did not justify logging for chips. I was making a point about timber.
Chips were originally intended to supplement the timber industry here as a use for waste product but alas it went a bit awry.
 
Donske said:
PNG has other issues at play and if you lived there you know that mate, from the South East Asians raping the land and sea for every penny they can extract from it to the traditional land owners themselves willing to destroy their own environment with illegal gold mining using poor practices just to fill their coffers. Australians of course have had a detrimental effect but surely blaming it all on us is a stretch.

I was going to say something on the Ok Tedi thing but my company still has dealings with them so probably best not to comment there.
Pretty sure I didn't blame Australia for all of PNG's faults at all in my post???

Ok Tedi has cleaned up a lot since the days of purging the river of all it's by-products and killing everything down stream.
 
Not For Horses said:
Yep that is true, hemp is a far better crop for a few of those applications. But do you think they'd let us grow the stuff here? It's easier to grow poppies than it is hemp. Can't be grown in a paddock visible from a public road, can't be grown within 5km of a school plus many other regulations that I've not properly read.
The point I was making was about saw logs. I'm not a fan of a chip industry at all.
I most certainly did not justify logging for chips. I was making a point about timber.
Chips were originally intended to supplement the timber industry here as a use for waste product but alas it went a bit awry.
The restrictions around hemp growing are ridiculous, the variety used for these applications contain very minimal THC.

That said, I think medicinal marijuana would also be a great crop for Tassie. If you manage to grow poppies & Tassie has the lowest rate of pharmacotherapy therapy for opioid dependency of any state, then surely cannabis could be produced safely.
 
Governments freak out as soon as hemp is mentioned....they manage to come up with all sorts of reasons, mostly ********, to not want a hemp industry
 
Marijuana prohibition in the US was achieved on the back of a massive media campaign run by a media mogul with big money in timber/cotton. Australia followed suit on advice from the US Government.

I reckon our policies will catch up with community standards over the next 10-15 years (sooner perhaps). Medicinal cannabis to treat conditions like epilepsy is gaining some real attention lately. The VIC opposition leader will campaign on a medicinal marijuana platform this November. I bloody hope it gets up, hardly anyone gives a toss about recreational pot smoking, let alone a seemingly effective medical treatment.
 
Not For Horses said:
Yep that is true, hemp is a far better crop for a few of those applications. But do you think they'd let us grow the stuff here? It's easier to grow poppies than it is hemp.
There are a number of HEMP farms down Hounville way... I used to live not far from the poppy fields in Tas.. conversely.. used to live around quite a number of ... hempish fields in Huonville too :lol:
 
Luke1992 said:
The World Heritage Commission doesn't just list sites for nothing.
No it doesn't. But the reasoning behind it could be a lot different to what the general population believes it is.
 
Feldon said:
Shopping has accounted for 70% of the Us economy for years now.

Just a grab bag...

From the New York Times back in 2009:



Given that consumer spending has in recent years accounted for 70 percent of the nation’s economic activity, a marginal shrinking could significantly depress demand for goods and services, discouraging businesses from hiring more workers.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/29/business/economy/29consumer.html?_r=0
And more recently in Crain's Chicago Business in Nov last year:


Less optimism among Americans could slow the holiday shopping season and weigh on economic growth. Consumer spending drives 70 percent of economic activity.
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20131126/NEWS07/131129839/consumer-confidence-in-u-s-economy-falls-to-7-month-low
Basically, Mr & Mrs Joe Average in the US go shopping at the mall and load up with Chinese made stuff. To pay China for it the US Govt gives China treasury notes denominated in US dollars (China has long been the US's biggest creditor - the US is in hock to China for $trillions).

To keep the domestic economic cycle going the US Federal Reserve has been issuing currency to banks at zero percent interest. And to keep the supply of US dollars up they just print more money whenever they need to (they call it 'Quantative Easing').

Now, all commodities have a price. If you ask what's the price of potatoes? the answer might be $3.50/kilo. But money is somewhat different. The price of money is determined by its interest. So if interest is 10% and you want to buy 1 dollar its going to cost you $1.10. But with the Federal Reserve issuing currency at zero percent it means it has no value - its worthless.

Its only a matter of time before the Chinese get fed up with US treasury notes that are worthless.
Just for anyone reading this please understand that it's a gross oversimplification.

The Fed isn't printing money. It's buying T bills.

It is not "issuing currency to banks at zero percent interest". It is charging 0 or close to 0 interest at the discount window.

These are not semantic distinctions, they are important and complex topics. Terminology matters.

It's also just wrong to say that money has value in the way you say. Money is a medium of exchange. $10 is only worth $10 because you'll give me goods or services in exchange for that $10. The rate at the discount window is so far disconnected from the concept of the value of money that you have said that it directly influences that it's not even funny. And before you mention inflation, you need to take the velocity of money into account to even go there, and you've not yet done that.

If the Chinese get fed up with them as you say, what will they do? What can they do? Sell their holdings? How will that impact the US treasury given that they have already sold the bonds and aren't impacted by a sale on the secondary market.

What will China do with all of the US dollars it gets for selling products to the US? Buy Russian bonds? First it needs to get rid of its dollars. What can it do with those dollars? It'll exchange them of course. They aren't going to be worthless while that state of affairs persists.

How will US dollars become worthless when they are required to pay taxes in a $15 trillion economy? Backed by the most powerful military in history, if you think such things are relevant. To save you the time - it sure as **** won't happen because China get fed up. China need the US.

Edit - it's also flat out misleading to say that China is the biggest creditor to the US. The largest holder of T bills is the social security trust. The biggest creditor is the US populace.
 
Fcuck you, Australia Felix
Fcuck you, the sheep's back
Fcuck you, Tasmania
Fcuck you, Big Mac

I drive a truck
I drive a truck

(with apologies)
 
We used to own a decent sized property down South with a small timber mill on the side. This mill had a licence to go into local forest areas marked for felling and select specialty timber I.e. Huon pine, sassafras, myrtle etc, where we would gather them before the big boys would come through and log timber mainly for wood chips. The big timber companies were often near impossible to work with, time and time again they would come in early with no notice and clear the place out. Obviously we need paper but seeing truck after truck go past with logs worth thousands of dollars each only to be turned into near worthless chips was a bloody disgrace.

Wouldn't be so bad if the wood chips were all processed in Australia instead of being shipped overseas.

I don't agree with totally banning logging, and these pre logged areas won't have grown back a lot of slow growing timbers any way/may never have contained them, but the industry needs to be reasonably well regulated, like any natural resource industry, especially when you look back to the Paul Lennon days.
 
practicalfool said:
It is about value add.

If you are building houses out of cheap pre-fab steel from o/s you are definitely hurting the economy. There isn't any real value add on that which justifies taking the equivalent activity from the local economy.
If you are holding off imported steel with tarriffs and that steel is required to build a tomato canning factory, forcing the tomato canning factory to be built more expensive and slower and not be able to afford modern cost saving technology, then you are kicking back a genuine opportunity to add exponential value to that steel and make some real money.
It'd make sense to me if they wanted to log selectively and let's say set up a furniture industry, building timber, flooring etc that'd add real value, sell the labour of the workers making that stuff. They could dig into the foliage and set up a herbal products industry. Attract some brains in and really put people to work, it'd involve working harder though.

This idea that tassie forests are about to be turned into wood chips is what rankles the greenie. It is bare subsistence industry. You're not lifting anyone out of that. This is bare minimum lip service at the cost of turning trees into wood chip. Leave that low value harvesting alone. It's the attitude of minimum effort for low margin income on a large scale that is repulsive.
Do you really think that native forests are just logged for wood chip?
All state controlled native forests in Tasmania, I can't speak for private land, (except for plantations that are grown for the express purpose of chip) are logged for higher value product. Chip logs are the by product of a sawlog industry. Forestry is way too expensive to go and exclusively chase low yielding product.
Returns of $10-$20 per tonne for pulp, Returns of $70-150 per tonne for sawlog nd upto $1000-$10,000 per tonne for very high value special species ie black Heart Sassafrass, Huon Pine, Tiger Myrtle etc.

One of the issues with Australian timber is that there is waste due to high incidence of defect within trees, on an average 40-60% of logs will not meet a higher grade product. This lower grade resource is what goes into the chippers and is exported...Would be great to be able to downstream process this material into other products such as paper, particle board, MDF, nano cellulose products.
Look up nano cellulose, exciting stuff, it can be used to make just about everything from plastics to capacitors

Selective logging:
The majority of forests in Tas are selectively logged. The exception is the wet eucalypt forests of NW and SW Tasmania that are pretty much clear fell. There are some very good reasons to clearfall such as, better regen, safety, cost etc etc, Selective logging is best practiced in dry multi aged forests however these techniques do not always cover all forest types.
Forestry has been going on in Tas since man first arrived on the island and funnily enough much of these pre logged areas are now within World Heritage areas, so us foresters must have been getting something right.

Alternatives:
Crops such as hemp, wheat stubble etc. have very high chemical inputs and a huge C02 footprint. Native forest logging has no chemical inputs...could be considered organic and is also the only carbon positive industry in Aus.
Growing products such hemp, wheat, sugar cane fro pulp is also incredibly expensive ,tough on soils, have high water inputs, fertilizers, insecticides, fungicides, its difficult to bulk transport, has low pulp yields and at the end of the day you still have to build a pulp mill and paper plant that no body wants in their back yard.

Where are the alternatives to timber ? Concrete, steel, aluminium? Recycling is only a small percentage of actual need.

If only we could construct houses from dream catchers?

Cheers
Chris
 
You're not trying to bring logic and fact to an internet thread are you ?.
 
TasChris said:
One of the issues with Australian timber is that there is waste due to high incidence of defect within trees, on an average 40-60%...
That makes the industry sound even more unsustainable

TasChris said:
Alternatives:
Crops such as hemp, wheat stubble etc. have very high chemical inputs and a huge C02 footprint. Native forest logging has no chemical inputs...could be considered organic and is also the only carbon positive industry in Aus.
Growing products such hemp, wheat, sugar cane fro pulp is also incredibly expensive ,tough on soils, have high water inputs, fertilizers, insecticides, fungicides, its difficult to bulk transport, has low pulp yields and at the end of the day you still have to build a pulp mill and paper plant that no body wants in their back yard.

Where are the alternatives to timber ? Concrete, steel, aluminium? Recycling is only a small percentage of actual need.
Chris, you realise the alternative crops you've listed don't require identical farming methods or have identical environmental impacts, right? Can you provide some kind of back up to your statement as it pertains to hemp? Everything I've read suggests that it's a high yielding, fast growing, low impact crop that requires very little in the way if pesticides & fertilizers.

It is incidentally a crop that can also be used for nano-cellulose AND for building materials.

Here's a link from Forbes magazine (I chose this one, because Forbes could hardly be accused of advocating for houses built from dream catchers!):
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ashoka/2013/05/29/industrial-hemp-a-win-win-for-the-economy-and-the-environment/
 
aah selective logging, such harmony with the land


Selective.jpg

Selective 2.jpg
 
Here's another (less impartial, but well referenced) link re hemp. Some key points*:
- hemp "breathes in" 4 x the CO2 of trees
- 1 acre of hemp produces as much cellulose fibre product as 4.1 acres of trees
- hemp has a 12-14 week growing cycle Vs. circa 20 years for trees.

* as per my point in my earlier post, I realise that commercially grown trees are also not homogenous. For example, 20 years may not be a typical growth cycle in the Aus timber industry. It's definitely not 3 months though.

http://www.hemp-technologies.com/page33/page33.html
 
Hemp decking doesn't quite look as good. And I doubt it makes as good a housing frame.


What is hemp so great for?, and what other materials can it replace?

First line was a bit if a joke but I'm genuinely curious.
 
mje1980 said:
...What is hemp so great for?, and what other materials can it replace?...
Have a squizz at the last link I posted. Basically hemp can produce food, fuel, fiber (cloth, paper etc), plastics, nano-cellulose (Chris is right, this **** IS exciting). I could potentially replace some petrochemicals, cotton, woodchips etc.
 
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