Fcuck you Tasmania

[philmud]

Worth mentioning that Tassie residents are just as divided on this issue. My in-laws are from there & have differing opinions. My mother-in-law is firmly in the conservationist camp, attends rallies & all of that. My father-in-law would describe himself as a pragmatist & while he probably wouldn't argue for the expansion of the logging industry, he understands the issues with the notion that the state should seamlessly adapt to life without it. As someone mentioned, your average timber worker is not well suited to hospitality.
Personally, I'm a conservationist, but I freely admit that I've got no idea how the transition could be achieved without throwing the next two (more?) generations of timber industry workers under the bus.
Interesting to me is that Bribie is from QLD. If I was to pick a holiday destination on the basis of agreeing with the Government's policies, QLD would come in marginally ahead of North Korea. Additionally, boycotts of this kind don't encourage the expansion of the tourism industry, they suppress it. Anyone who cared more about the Tarkine than their own moral outrage would encourage people to visit it & spend a few dollars.

 

[niftinev]

At the end of the day people need jobs (I'm not saying at any expense) and jobs create more jobs and most states have forest industries like logging and so should Tassie ( just needs good management) not chop it all down mentality, the environment needs to looked after not just locked up.
Everyone needs to be able to enjoy what this great country has to offer
We also need for all to have minimum education (stop and help those that fall through the cracks) and if you have to sit on a bus for a fuckin hour to get to school because of where you live so be it (been there).
There is no point in making thousands unemployed and adding billions to the cost of welfare, we need to create jobs and if it needs financial help so be it. Most other countries help their industries financially so why not us. How much is it going to cost this country in welfare payments for the closing down of the car industry and it's flow on affects. probably a billion a year as against a billion every 10-15 years not to mention the other socio economic problems associated with it.
Don't think the pollies will sort it out, they just like to feather their own nest and waste our money, Yes they got their free uni degrees that we payed for and now want to further burden the young with higher costs (**** you Pine and Costello) let them have it at lower costs so they can afford to have families and buy homes and everything else associated with it ( this will create jobs) don't leave them burden in debt until there 35-40 years old before they can do this. What you think because they earn more with a degree they should pay more for it! this is what the tax brackets are for you dumb ass pollies, yes they will pay more in taxes provided we have and create jobs for them.
enough of my rantings

And to all you Tasmanians I look forward to oneday visiting that great state you all call home

ps bribies noy a queenslander just lived there for a while

 

[Dave70]

Most other countries help their industries financially so why not us. How much is it going to cost this country in welfare payments for the closing down of the car industry and it's flow on affects. probably a billion a year as against a billion every 10-15 years not to mention the other socio economic problems associated with it.

We all have a dig at the yanks for their cheesy, almost nationalistic brand of patriotism. But a National Research Center study estimated that in the order of 78% of consumers would buy American, even if it cost more. If I can dig up the study, I'll link it. 'Made in America' is a powerful marketing tool. Thats how countries help their industry's.
So to that end, how many reading this are guilty of passing the Dick Smith peanut butter for the cheaper Kraft brand? I sure as **** am. And it not like buying the local brand would break the bank either. Just like I buy online from overseas if its cheaper. We all love a bargain, right? Just consider for a second how many local industries have tanked because we all chose to save a few bucks on a collard shirt or tin of fruit. Every stitch of clothing I'm currently clad in was assembled in China or India.

Laying 100% of the blame for failing industry at the governments feet is bullshit if consumers aren't willing to put their money where their mouths are and buy local. As is pissing money into clearly unsustainable manufacturing. The writing was on the wall for our car industry years ago. It should go without saying however, there's no free ride. If your local product is rubbish, know ones going to pay for the privilege of multiple warranty claims.

I'm as much for kicking the guberment in the balls as the next malcontent, but blaming Hocky and co for all our financial woes, social inequity and un employment is pure hypocrisy when our shopping trolleys are full of Brazilian oranges and American peanut butter. The fact that we, as individuals, are more or less the architects of our own financial futures cant be ignored. Blame governments for everything if it makes you feel better, buy you're really pissing up the wrong tree in my opinion.

 

[philmud]

Dave, any idea whether the US manufacturing industry has much protection from Government? I take your point that the study found that US consumers weren't price driven, but it'd be interesting to know whether that culture developed in a relative free market, or one with heavy economic protection.

 

[Feldon]

What people might say to a survey question and what they actually do when shopping are two very different things.

70% of the US economy is shopping, most of it on foreign-made good.

 

[Dave70]

Dave, any idea whether the US manufacturing industry has much protection from Government? I take your point that the study found that US consumers weren't price driven, but it'd be interesting to know whether that culture developed in a relative free market, or one with heavy economic protection.

No, not really, but fair to assume what works in a country of 330 million may not necessarily translate to a country of 23 million. But I think the secret is in the attitude more than anything. Obviously all Americans don't buy local exclusively, but its far more ingrained into their culture. It's idealistic to think buying local is some kind of economic panacea, but its good place to start.

What I do know for a fact is I have a customer who can get his structural steel manufactured, galvanized and shipped over from China ready to install for less of the cost of even getting it fabricated locally. Barangaroo is pretty much full of imported, pre fab, made in China steel. If governments want to stick their beaks in, here's an area begging for it. Its ******* killing the industry.

 

[Dave70]

What people might say to a survey question and what they actually do when shopping are two very different things.

70% of the US economy is shopping, most of it on foreign-made good.

True, only bored arseholes generally fill out surveys. But percentages are relative. 30% may be all it takes to sustain local industries and keep people employed.
Where did you get 70% from anyway?

 

[niftinev]

At the end of the day people need jobs (I'm not saying at any expense) and jobs create more jobs and most states have forest industries like logging and so should Tassie ( just needs good management) not chop it all down mentality, the environment needs to looked after not just locked up.
Everyone needs to be able to enjoy what this great country has to offer
We also need for all to have minimum education (stop and help those that fall through the cracks) and if you have to sit on a bus for a fuckin hour to get to school because of where you live so be it (been there).
There is no point in making thousands unemployed and adding billions to the cost of welfare, we need to create jobs and if it needs financial help so be it. Most other countries help their industries financially so why not us. How much is it going to cost this country in welfare payments for the closing down of the car industry and it's flow on affects. probably a billion a year as against a billion every 10-15 years not to mention the other socio economic problems associated with it.
Don't think the pollies will sort it out, they just like to feather their own nest and waste our money, Yes they got their free uni degrees that we payed for and now want to further burden the young with higher costs (**** you Pine and Costello) let them have it at lower costs so they can afford to have families and buy homes and everything else associated with it ( this will create jobs) don't leave them burden in debt until there 35-40 years old before they can do this. What you think because they earn more with a degree they should pay more for it! this is what the tax brackets are for you dumb ass pollies, yes they will pay more in taxes provided we have and create jobs for them.
enough of my rantings

And to all you Tasmanians I look forward to oneday visiting that great state you all call home

ps bribies noy a queenslander just lived there for a while
[/quote]

edit should read pine and abbot, apologise to costello (not even a polly anymore)

 

[niftinev]

We all have a dig at the yanks for their cheesy, almost nationalistic brand of patriotism. But a National Research Center study estimated that in the order of 78% of consumers would buy American, even if it cost more. If I can dig up the study, I'll link it. 'Made in America' is a powerful marketing tool. Thats how countries help their industry's.
So to that end, how many reading this are guilty of passing the Dick Smith peanut butter for the cheaper Kraft brand? I sure as **** am. And it not like buying the local brand would break the bank either. Just like I buy online from overseas if its cheaper. We all love a bargain, right? Just consider for a second how many local industries have tanked because we all chose to save a few bucks on a collard shirt or tin of fruit. Every stitch of clothing I'm currently clad in was assembled in China or India.

Laying 100% of the blame for failing industry at the governments feet is bullshit if consumers aren't willing to put their money where their mouths are and buy local. As is pissing money into clearly unsustainable manufacturing. The writing was on the wall for our car industry years ago. It should go without saying however, there's no free ride. If your local product is rubbish, know ones going to pay for the privilege of multiple warranty claims.

I'm as much for kicking the guberment in the balls as the next malcontent, but blaming Hocky and co for all our financial woes, social inequity and un employment is pure hypocrisy when our shopping trolleys are full of Brazilian oranges and American peanut butter. The fact that we, as individuals, are more or less the architects of our own financial futures cant be ignored. Blame governments for everything if it makes you feel better, buy you're really pissing up the wrong tree in my opinion.

I never layed total blame on the gov. just that it was there decision that provided one of the final nails in the coffin in regards to the car industry and your trolley may be full of Brazilian oranges and American peanut butter but mine isn't. You just keep buying everything from overseas it'll help fix the prob. and yes I own and drive an aussie made car. It's good to hear you think all aussie made cars are rubbish, what a great help!
Buy Australian if you can it will help.

 

[Feldon]

True, only bored arseholes generally fill out surveys. But percentages are relative. 30% may be all it takes to sustain local industries and keep people employed.
Where did you get 70% from anyway?

Shopping has accounted for 70% of the Us economy for years now.

Just a grab bag...

From the New York Times back in 2009:
Given that consumer spending has in recent years accounted for 70 percent of the nation’s economic activity, a marginal shrinking could significantly depress demand for goods and services, discouraging businesses from hiring more workers.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/29/business/economy/29consumer.html?_r=0

And more recently in Crain's Chicago Business in Nov last year:
Less optimism among Americans could slow the holiday shopping season and weigh on economic growth. Consumer spending drives 70 percent of economic activity.
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20131126/NEWS07/131129839/consumer-confidence-in-u-s-economy-falls-to-7-month-low

Basically, Mr & Mrs Joe Average in the US go shopping at the mall and load up with Chinese made stuff. To pay China for it the US Govt gives China treasury notes denominated in US dollars (China has long been the US's biggest creditor - the US is in hock to China for $trillions).

To keep the domestic economic cycle going the US Federal Reserve has been issuing currency to banks at zero percent interest. And to keep the supply of US dollars up they just print more money whenever they need to (they call it 'Quantative Easing').

Now, all commodities have a price. If you ask what's the price of potatoes? the answer might be $3.50/kilo. But money is somewhat different. The price of money is determined by its interest. So if interest is 10% and you want to buy 1 dollar its going to cost you $1.10. But with the Federal Reserve issuing currency at zero percent it means it has no value - its worthless.

Its only a matter of time before the Chinese get fed up with US treasury notes that are worthless.

 

[Dave70]

I never layed total blame on the gov. just that it was there decision that provided one of the final nails in the coffin in regards to the car industry and your trolley may be full of Brazilian oranges and American peanut butter but mine isn't. You just keep buying everything from overseas it'll help fix the prob. and yes I own and drive an aussie made car. It's good to hear you think all aussie made cars are rubbish, what a great help!
Buy Australian if you can it will help.

Don't take it personally nev, I was just speaking in the broader sense. I'm as guilty as the next guy for shopping offshore, I thought I made that obvious.
Good on you for buying a Australian made car, hope your happy with it. On balance I've found Toyota's to be far better built, better resale and more reliable.
The government may have nailed the lid shut on the coffin, but the body was on death row way before that. If a robot can do your job quicker, cheaper and with more precision, your days are numbered.

 

[philmud]

The government may have nailed the lid shut on the coffin, but the body was on death row way before that. If a robot can do your job quicker, cheaper and with more precision, your days are numbered.

So here is where I think the role of Government sits; to assist communities affected by industrial shifts like this to develop new industries that are economically viable without being continually propped up. I'm yet to see it done well. Geelong is a community with similar problems & the last Federal Gov responded by setting up the NDIS headquarters in Geelong. This might assist by attracting people to the area, but your average Ford production line worker won't necessarily get work with the NDIS, or within a service/supporting industry.
It's a tough ask; find and bankroll a viable industry that won't only support future generations, but also the people immediately affected by the demise of the outgoing industry.

I think the only sensible answer in Tasmania is for the Government to subsidise a lumberjack porn industry.

 

[niftinev]

Don't take it personally nev, I was just speaking in the broader sense. I'm as guilty as the next guy for shopping offshore, I thought I made that obvious.
Good on you for buying a Australian made car, hope your happy with it. On balance I've found Toyota's to be far better built, better resale and more reliable.
The government may have nailed the lid shut on the coffin, but the body was on death row way before that. If a robot can do your job quicker, cheaper and with more precision, your days are numbered.

nah not taking it personally just think sometimes we need to help our own and I hate not having good choices
sick of this made in china crap just so multi nationals can make more money
and I hate companies that bring goods in from another country then send them onto us as made in or product of that country not china, yes Heinz your part of it.
If i wanted to eat food grown in shit I'd shit in my own vege patch not need someone elses
I've seen and had to use enough poor quality goods it's made me sick
i'm just a poor pensioner now so maybe I can start up a benevolent society so all you good people here will help me out(donate) as well as the man who wants to become a brewer.
Nah **** off it's great. I will survive!

cheers Dave

 

[Spohaw]

wish I was a greenie doo gooder ....I would have read this thread instead of skipping to the end

im going to have a beer and chop some wood

 

[Lincoln2]

I think the only sensible answer in Tasmania is for the Government to subsidise a lumberjack porn industry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL7n5mEmXJo

I couldn't resist.

 

[pk.sax]

No, not really, but fair to assume what works in a country of 330 million may not necessarily translate to a country of 23 million. But I think the secret is in the attitude more than anything. Obviously all Americans don't buy local exclusively, but its far more ingrained into their culture. It's idealistic to think buying local is some kind of economic panacea, but its good place to start.

What I do know for a fact is I have a customer who can get his structural steel manufactured, galvanized and shipped over from China ready to install for less of the cost of even getting it fabricated locally. Barangaroo is pretty much full of imported, pre fab, made in China steel. If governments want to stick their beaks in, here's an area begging for it. Its ******* killing the industry.

It is about value add.

If you are building houses out of cheap pre-fab steel from o/s you are definitely hurting the economy. There isn't any real value add on that which justifies taking the equivalent activity from the local economy.
If you are holding off imported steel with tarriffs and that steel is required to build a tomato canning factory, forcing the tomato canning factory to be built more expensive and slower and not be able to afford modern cost saving technology, then you are kicking back a genuine opportunity to add exponential value to that steel and make some real money.
It'd make sense to me if they wanted to log selectively and let's say set up a furniture industry, building timber, flooring etc that'd add real value, sell the labour of the workers making that stuff. They could dig into the foliage and set up a herbal products industry. Attract some brains in and really put people to work, it'd involve working harder though.

This idea that tassie forests are about to be turned into wood chips is what rankles the greenie. It is bare subsistence industry. You're not lifting anyone out of that. This is bare minimum lip service at the cost of turning trees into wood chip. Leave that low value harvesting alone. It's the attitude of minimum effort for low margin income on a large scale that is repulsive.

 

[niftinev]

What I do know for a fact is I have a customer who can get his structural steel manufactured, galvanized and shipped over from China ready to install for less of the cost of even getting it fabricated locally. Barangaroo is pretty much full of imported, pre fab, made in China steel. If governments want to stick their beaks in, here's an area begging for it. Its ******* killing the industry.

It'll probabably bite them on the arse in the long run as it is some of the worst steel you can get and don't believe anything they tell you as they think 9001 gives it quality it is only a measure of everything being made exactly the same ie if the quality of materials is poor your final product will be poor

 

[Not For Horses]

This idea that tassie forests are about to be turned into wood chips is what rankles the greenie. It is bare subsistence industry. You're not lifting anyone out of that. This is bare minimum lip service at the cost of turning trees into wood chip. Leave that low value harvesting alone. It's the attitude of minimum effort for low margin income on a large scale that is repulsive.

It's also not the only thing we do here. To an extent it is where gunns was pushing the industry but it most certainly was not the only use of our trees.
One of my many hats is that of bushfire hazard assessor. I recently did a job for the local sawmiller in a regional Tasmanian town. He was building an office for his new concrete batching plant. Sounds like he's diversifying right? Well not quite. He had to close the sawmill and lay off the 5 blokes that worked for him because he couldn't get logs thank to all the forest peace deals. So now he's able to scratch out a decent living for his family but what about the other 5 blokes? Unemployed now.
Also did a small mining lease survey for yet another small regional sawmiller. Same story, he's going to sell pebbles and the like from his land while the sawmill sits and rots and the 4 blokes that used to work for him now look for work.
Both these mills were profitable, busy mills 5 or 10 years ago. Both, this year, still had excellent pre orders from local customers. The first guy had an excellent contract selling flooring. Price of logs went up due to availability and he was priced out of the market by imports.
So by all means, hate on woodchips if you must (if you promise not to print emails or read books or wipe your arse anymore) but for goodness sake let us grow timber.

 

[pk.sax]

I don't see why they can't recycle the tons of newsprint and packaging cardboard into more paper. Of course you have to keep topping it up with more raw plant material. There is also thousands of hectares under cultivation in Australia with grasses (wheat, barley...) producing tons of waste fibre. Are you really justifying logging forests for paper? Wasn't someone whinging about having to sort their recycling on this forum just days ago.

Really sad about genuine timber business going out of business due to being locked out of the market, I'm sure the small guys will gain with these changes but the lions share of the damage and the profits will be on the hands of the 'gunns'. And they don't truly give a shit, do they?

 

[philmud]

So by all means, hate on woodchips if you must (if you promise not to print emails or read books or wipe your arse anymore) but for goodness sake let us grow timber.

I'd happily print/wipe/read with hemp based papers & I understand as a crop it's higher yielding (per acre) & obviously has a faster growth cycle.