Efficiency drop on bigger beers

[Mardoo]

If you listen to the High Gravity series from Brew Strong you'll get some more info on efficiency drop at higher gravities. I don't remember the specifics off the top of my head, but it is a confirmed effect:

http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-Strong/search/high+gravity

A very interesting series and well worth a listen. It's my drivetime listening.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Sounds like a beer that did well in the NSW comp this year. Stuster made a long-boil Wee Heavy. Gorgeous.

Oh yeah, its the only way to get gravity and add delicious depth. Get the Stuster to post a recipe. :icon_drool2:
Spiesy , I dont believe you said you are over big beers ?
I intend on mastering them, last batch (barley wine 10.2%) has great results.
Nev

 

[Yob]

I had experienced this with +13ish kg mashes until today..

Didn't think it would make a difference and still not sure as there are other variables but..

Mash today was an hour at 63, we then went out for yum cha, set the hex to 78 and went out.. Hour and a half later got home and first runnings were the highest I've ever had.. 1.115

The other variable is the mill but I don't credit such a huge jump to that.

Previous, I'd expect about 1.085 or there abouts.

Effed if I know where the jump came from

 

[fletcher]

What do you reckon is the beginning of diminishing returns?

perhaps everyone's will be different but for my biab set up, i'll usually starting slowly dropping lower with efficiency after about 1.050-1.055. having said this, i haven't done exactly the same brew over and over, incrementally with a slightly higher OG expectation so...take that with a grain of salt.

 

[Mr B]

Interesting, thanks guys (or girls if you are enjoying an internet persona...)

 

[Trough Lolly]

Interesting, correlates with what I'm seeing. Although with 12.5kg I still hit 85% on the golden. 17Kg on the black IPA and it was around 72 I think

I suspect that the relatively lower efficiency gain in your black IPA may also be due to the grain bill. A kilo of dark malt weighs the same as a kilo of pale malt of course, but delivers much more colour yet less fermentables in the pre-boil wort...Just a hunch - and can be easily addressed in your recipe engine.

Cheers,
TL

 

[Moad]

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 78.72 l
Post Boil Volume: 70.72 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 65.00 l
Bottling Volume: 61.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.064 SG
Estimated Color: 35.9 EBC
Estimated IBU: 57.4 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 78.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 81.6 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
15.03 kg Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) ( Grain 1 86.4 %
2.07 kg Crystal (Joe White) (141.8 EBC) Grain 2 11.9 %
0.30 kg Carafa Special III (Weyermann) (925.9 EB Grain 3 1.7 %
150.54 g Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 29.3 IBUs
150.54 g Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 5 25.1 IBUs
75.27 g Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 6 2.9 IBUs
150.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 7 0.0 IBUs
3.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 8 -


Compared to

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 71.52 l
Post Boil Volume: 65.52 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 60.00 l   
Bottling Volume: 56.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.045 SG
Estimated Color: 18.9 EBC
Estimated IBU: 33.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.6 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
6.80 kg               Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC)         Grain         1        54.8 %        
2.50 kg               Munich, Light (Joe White) (17.7 EBC)     Grain         2        20.2 %        
2.47 kg               Rye Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC)           Grain         3        19.9 %        
0.63 kg               Carabohemian (200.0 EBC)                 Grain         4        5.0 %         
30.14 g               Magnum [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min         Hop           5        17.3 IBUs     
70.00 g               Amarillo [8.70 %] - Boil 20.0 min        Hop           6        16.3 IBUs     
90.00 g               Amarillo [8.70 %] - Boil 0.0 min         Hop           7        0.0 IBUs      
3.0 pkg               Safale American  (DCL/Fermentis #US-05)  Yeast         8        -

 

[Moad]

Ignore the eff. set in these recipes.

 

[fraser_john]

I batch sparge, for higher OG beers, I split the sparge water up into multiple batches. For a 1040-1050 beers, a single batch, 1050-70 two sparges and higher three. Gets me a consistent 80-82% efficiency.

Just need to make sure that sparge water is properly treated with salts (no carbonates) and acid if needed.

 

[Moad]

as in recirc first sparge?

 

[QldKev]

I batch sparge, for higher OG beers, I split the sparge water up into multiple batches. For a 1040-1050 beers, a single batch, 1050-70 two sparges and higher three. Gets me a consistent 80-82% efficiency.

Just need to make sure that sparge water is properly treated with salts (no carbonates) and acid if needed.

I believe in multiple sparges for bigger beers too. I only started doing them as I really need a bigger HLT for my 3V system. I did a batch the other day at 1.072, and found the second sparge runnings to be at 7 brix. Ended up at 87% pre-boil eff. For a comparison I normally get around 85% for a normal beer with a single batch sparge. What blew me away was I did a third sparge to see if I could get a parti-gyle happening, and I let the sparge water recirc for 10-15min as I go pulled away from it. Even the third runnings were 7 brix.

 

[fraser_john]

as in recirc first sparge?

Moad, Not 100% sure what you mean by this question..

But, batch sparge is a way of sparging in batches, in my case if I have 22 litres sparge water, I'll split that into two sparges, each 11 litres each, process is:
1) drain wort into kettle
2) sparge with first 11 litres water, recirc till clear
3) drain first sparge into kettle
4) sparge with second 11 litres water, recirc till clear
5) drain second sparge into kettle

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

as in recirc first sparge?

YES. ( and every runnings ) This helps rinse out da sugaz

I re-circ all my sparges untill the sparge liqiud runs clear. This also help keep kettle trub to a minimum as well.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Sounds like a beer that did well in the NSW comp this year. Stuster made a long-boil Wee Heavy. Gorgeous.

That is how Scottish Heavy is made. Long boil caramelises the sugars and increases the SG

 

[Moad]

YES. ( and every runnings ) This helps rinse out da sugaz

I re-circ all my sparges untill the sparge liqiud runs clear. This also help keep kettle trub to a minimum as well.

I see, I have only been doing single sparge but I have HERMS so it is recirculating during the mash anyway. In order to do multiple sparges would I need another vessel to store half of the hot liquor?

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

You only need your kettle. You run each sparge into the kettle when you finish recirculating