Dry Versus Ferment Hopping

[Nashmandu]

Bum firstly seasons greetings to you

If you have read through this post you will understand that we have attempted to rationalize the difference between dry and ferment hop

In the procedure the hop additions were done exactly the same and at the same time frame

The only difference is that there was hop added prior to fermentation and the same amount was added to the second split batch post fermentation ie after racking to conditioning at 2 degrees

Both beers are good but the ferment hopped brew is (perception wise) better

If you have any doubts about this proposition try it for your self

We are only here for the beer!


i think you are creating your own names for this hopping. Dry hopping doesnt usually refer to a dry ferment which is what i gues you are refering to. Both methods you are testing are dry hopping...
speedie

 

[Nashmandu]

I'm not following Speedie. What does lightning have to do with hop haze and dry hopping?

Speedie makes absolutley no sense, ridiculus stuff!

 

[barls]

Speedie makes absolutley no sense, ridiculus stuff!

i think hes using the chewbacca defense

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?...ewbacca+defense

 

[speedie]

Tb & mhb what contribution to the this haze cloudy experiment do you have to offer other than I dont know what I am talking about read a book sort of remarks you have put forward



If you have no constructive comments to offer other than ridicule why would you waste your valuable time responding

It is typical of narrow minded people like you to respond that way



I put this to you that everything repeats every thing moves in a frequency (wave length) light, sound, energy



And that things will always follow a path of high too low or + to so dont be so sure that you know what you are discussing



I await your positive comments

speedie

 

[JonnyAnchovy]

Speedie. AHB's most sucessfull troll yet.

Can't believe you guys are falling for it.

 

[felten]

Agreed. obvious troll is obvious, don't feed him too much

 

[speedie]

felton the aggitator

 

[matr]

I don't know if you guys realise but you keep spelling "tool" wrong.

What? Oh righto you do mean troll...

 

[jonocarroll]

I put this to you that everything repeats every thing moves in a frequency (wave length) light, sound, energy

And that things will always follow a path of high too low or + to so don't be so sure that you know what you are discussing

Oh, man. I want to reply to this, I really do, but my science muscle hurts already



I just know that if I hurt it once, it will repeat, since everything does, and it will go from + too -.

I've re-read a lot of this thread

and realised that while bum was trying to get you to answer questions on haze

you never actually did. Your 'dry hopped' batch was hazier than your 'ferment hopped' batch (regardless of your explanation, and using your nomenclature)


Wouldn't this be simply due to the fact that you chilled and racked them both, THEN added hops to one - the now hazy one?
Doesn't take much to guess that if you chilled and racked the hazy one, you might get a similar clarity to the 'ferment hopped' one.


Then again, it's entirely possible that you've added more trub to one batch than the other, I don't know your exact procedure.

 

[MHB]

Tb & mhb what contribution to the this haze cloudy experiment do you have to offer other than I dont know what I am talking about read a book sort of remarks you have put forward
There is a group of people on AHB who study brewing, mostly because we work in the industry. By study, I mean have to pass exams; TB and I are among those brewers. So when you post complete gibberish and someone who just might know what they are talking about (usually fairly politely) suggests you should do some more research it might be worth paying attention.

If you have no constructive comments to offer other than ridicule why would you waste your valuable time responding
One and only one reason (for me I cant speak for others obviously), if the rubbish you come out with is left unchallenged, new brewers who dont know better might think its true. This is or is supposed to be a community, hopefully one of its aims being to make better beer. Knowledge and experience work together to further that aim, some of your posts detract from it and will be challenged.
Ridicule I disagree, most responses to your provocations are very temperate, in most cases a reason is give for disagreeing, your first response to start firing off personal insults.
You seem to think calling me a retailer is an insult, it isnt, Im proud of the services I provide and the support I offer my local community.

It is typical of narrow minded people like you to respond that way
Interesting opinion, note that when you have asked questions people have gone out of their way to answer thoughtfully (personally I have even gone and looked up answers for you).

I put this to you that everything repeats every thing moves in a frequency (wave length) light, sound, energy
And that things will always follow a path of high too low or + to so dont be so sure that you know what you are discussing
Well is as maybe, except for electrons that move from - to +. Not that it matters nor that it is related to this conversation. If you have an idea its great to put it up but it will be questioned, if you propose to change the way we all look at beer/brewing the onus is on you to provide supporting argument or (preferably) information. You cant expect everyone to agree with you just because you say so, I know I dont.

I await your positive comments
speedie
Sadly Im positive that I have just used up 15 minutes of my life to no gain.
MHB

 

[bigfridge]

Well is as maybe, except for electrons that move from - to +.


I await your positive comments
speedie

Sadly Im positive that I have just used up 15 minutes of my life to no gain.
MHB

Ah, now I understand why Speedie repsonds like he does - it is NOT his fault ........ It is all the positive responses from MHB and others that is drawing out the negative comments and personal abuse from Speedie ! Seems that Science CAN explain a lot of what goes on in brewing (forums).

Speedie, I can only congradulate you and your ilk for diving people like me away from AHB - I have taken my bat, ball, science degree and 30 years of brewing experience and gone elsewhere ...

 

[tavas]

Not sure how to go about my assumption on ferment hopping (dry for the sack of some pedantic brewers) but from obviation in the boil there is a lot of action in the wort, so there would be a fair amount of friction going on



Which would cause some sort of electro action (positive / negative charges) which bring about a clumping of particulate

This aids in flocculation of the colloidal matter which gives rise to hazing effect



No no no. Wrong wrong wrong.

Flocculation is the process of dropping colloids out of suspension. Completely the opposite of what you are saying.

Normally I don't get involved in pointless threads and slanging matches but in this case I can't help it. What you have said is fundamentally wrong, like saying the Earth is flat or the sky is pink and green.

What you are trying to allude to is the electro double layer present on a particle surface when immersed in water. This is predominately pH related and not related to static electricity. So the reference to lightning is totally irrelevant. If this were the case then shear thinning would not happen.

As for my qualifications, a metallurgy degree and 15 years industry experience playing with thickeners and flocculants should cover it.

Now your turn...what is your qualification to come up with such comments?

 

[speedie]

Each batch was brewed from the same stock

Each batch was cut in half from each kettle (ie 50/50)

Each batch was fermented at the same temp

Each batch has the exact same amount of hop

One batch ferment hopped (brilliant)

One batch conditioned hopped (hazy / grassy)



For the boys to contemplate

Why does ferment hop drop bright post boil?

Why does conditioned hop present haze issues



Dont go into oils etc as the same amount is in each vessel



I do get somewhat pissed when some cyber duded tells me that I brew ***** beer and know nothing of what I am talking about



I would bet that I have more awards than both of you

And that doesnt even matter to me

There are a lot of people that attain brewing educational standards that couldnt brew good beer to save themselves

Cheers speedie

 

[DJR]

For the boys to contemplate

Why does ferment hop drop bright post boil?

Why does conditioned hop present haze issues

Post Boil??? I assume you mean Post-Ferment rather than Boil....


I reckon the big difference here is CO2 - things can dissolve and dissipate with the CO2... e.g. myrcene, polyphenols and other organic compounds

The other difference is that you have active yeast in one and not in the other - so the yeast may metabolise or absorb some of the haze causing compounds during flocculation or active metabolism

And one set of personal advice - don't assume every piece of criticism/feedback on your results is a personal attack, its getting VERY old

 

[MHB]

Here is an analogy, now its not perfect but it might get the idea across.
Lets make Iced Tea, its very popular and widely available, there are two ways to make iced tea.
1/ is to make tea and put it in the fridge overnight
2/ is to soak tealeaves in cold water in the fridge overnight.
1 will give you bitter, astringent cloudy iced tea, 2 will give you clear refreshing iced tea like the commercial examples (well if you add 100g of sugar/litre)
Both are just tea and water - the conditions vary same for hops post kettle. Hops added earlier in the ferment are exposed to different conditions to those added in the cask (after the bulk of the fermentation is over).
Hops contain both desirable and undesirable fractions, when you add hops in the early vigorous ferment, some of the undesirable volatiles are carried off (so is some of the good aroma). Adding the hops later means less stripping, also higher alcohol content in the beer what will dissolve some of the hop fractions.
Some fractions that are quite soluble at fermenting temperatures become insoluble and form haze at serving temperatures. Some hops are richer in the fractions that throw grassy flavours (notably Chinook) others are low, so can be used more easily as cask hops.
Sorry we have to talk about Oils because thats what the conversation is about. Yes the same hops in the same beer used differently will give different results. Just like the example with the Iced Tea.

On a personal note, I for one am happy to discuss brewing with almost anyone. If when we dont agree you start spraying around personal insults you will get a similar response, a post like the one above will be treated with the courtesy and respect it deserves, as will you.
MHB

 

[bigfridge]

Each batch was brewed from the same stock

Each batch was cut in half from each kettle (ie 50/50)

Can you please give a little more detail on your brewing procedure. How did you ensure that each batch was identical and any separation was done with thoughly mixed wort ?

What was the starting and finishing gravities of each batch ?

I would bet that I have more awards than both of you

How do you know what awards I, MHB or any one else has got ? Far better to just stick with the brewing facts and don't get personal which just makes you look silly.

 

[schooey]

Sadly I'm positive that I have just used up 15 minutes of my life to no gain.

more sadly, even with taking into account the comments that are actually based on some sound brewing science, this is the truest statement of this thread

 

[jonocarroll]

Each batch was brewed from the same stock

Each batch was cut in half from each kettle (ie 50/50)

...

Why does ferment hop drop bright post boil?

Why does conditioned hop present haze issues

No. No. No.

If I'm understanding what you did correctly, they BOTH 'dropped bright' post boil - they, as you said above - are the same beer at this point. If they aren't then the entire experiment is invalid. Now, if you actually mean that you have one dropping bright after fermenting with some hops, chilling, kegging; and another not dropping bright after fermenting without hops, chilling kegging, then we can proceed.

If that's the case, then yes - fermenting with the hops is the difference between the batches, so that's what you need to examine. Rather than jumping to some crazy new theory about what's happening, think about what you *know* is happening - the hops are being stirred around in the ferment hop case, and very likely getting caught up in trub once the ferment dies down. The 'condition hopped' beer however can't do this - it's hops sitting on beer with (likely) very little trub.

This may not be the answer, but it's a start - what else happens to the oils during ferment?

Settle down, drink your beer, and stop trying to pretend that you've done something revolutionary.

 

[speedie]

I dont think that you can compare water and wort in the same way mhb

Making tea and brewing beer are poles apart

Your analogy may have some merit in trying to explain hazing for iced tea

But wort composition is some what more difficult to explain



What gives rise to the charge electrically in yeast and the trub

Yeast being negative and the other matter (colloidal) being positive



This is the area where I was giving some thought too in my experiment



There was a kettle addition of hops which is the normal thing then there was an identical amount go into both vessels post boil

The only difference being where in the fermentation cycle it was entered

I do give a lot of thought to why things happen and this was one suggestion that was put forward so hence the trail batches





If you read back through some of my other posts there has been a lot of slagging coming my way troll tool drop kick moron idiot

Is this absolutely necessary from so call intelligent brewers?

Qb you have stated the obvious in this trail much like I did when I was looking for some answers as to why? It dropped bright and other hazy

speedie

 

[Nevalicious]

If you read back through some of my other posts there has been a lot of slagging coming my way troll tool drop kick moron idiot

Is this absolutely necessary from so call intelligent brewers?

If the shoe fits :icon_cheers: