Dry Versus Ferment Hopping

[speedie]

There was some discussion at our Thursday night brew meeting on this coming

Weekends brew session and over the coarse of it we our brew team made 400 liters of ale

The objective was to utilize exclusively nelson sauvin hop both as a bittering and flavor component in the brew



There were five different malts used in a direct fired three step mash program to achieve a balance of malt and color

We had on a previous batch mash hopped but felt that the hop was wasted in its use so that was cut from this session



There where two more additions of hop which where added 15 then 45 minutes into boil which lasted for one hour

The last addition was to go into primary fermentation which had also been done in the earlier brew



We had a quick think tank and it was decide that the brew would be split into two 220 liter vessels and ferment hop one let both run there coarse in primary then cold settle and rack to clean vessels at which stage the second brew would be dry hopped



Hopefully this will shed some light on which path to follow for future brewing

My thinking was that there would be a reasonable amount of hop aroma flushed out with the Co2 during ferment and also a large amount of hop ends up on the walls above the brew after completion which really doesnt contribute to the goal



Now having said that what are the general consensuses on the dry hopping versus ferment hopping way of doing things do you feel that it is too grassy a taste? Dry hopped



Brew details

Malts wheat, rye, black, dark crystal & JW pilsner

400 liters @ 1055

Color copper

Rehydrated US05

Poor extract of 65% (mill problems and runoff)

Nelson sauvin 2009 crop 11.5 AA%

All comments appreciated

Cheers speedie

 

[manticle]

I've always been of the understanding that ferment will drive off volatiles so I've never actually tried ferment hopping. Dry hopping on the other hand will, in my experience lend grassiness IF overdone, IF done for too long and/or IF done with the wrong hop. Combinations of those will increase grassiness.

If done in the right amount for the right time with appropriate hops then I note no problems in my own beer.

Many good commercial beers are dry hopped with no resulting grassiness so grassiness is not a guaranteed result from dry hopping.

 

[haysie]

NS hops are lets say heavy in the front of the palate and rich in aroma. I would be looking at no more than .75gm to the ltr for dry hopping. Considering you have already late hopped, back it off to .5 of a gm per ltr. Nelson is a lot like Galaxy when used right its delicous, when overdone drinkers are looking for the spitoon. Good luck with it.

 

[mxd]

I think the theory is if you put the hops in at the start of fermenting the CO2 will drive some off the aroma off, if you add hops when cold chilling then you should maximize the hop aroma

 

[jonocarroll]

I don't think I've ever heard of someone deliberately 'ferment hopping' as opposed to dry hopping for the reasons stated - CO₂ will drive off the aromatics. As a frequent dry hopper (/keg hopper/glass hopper/etc) I can honestly say that dry hopping doesn't *necessarly* have to lead to grassiness, especially if done correctly for the type of hop you are using. If you use a high %AA hop then you will likely get some grassiness (high %AA typically has high humulone levels) but something a little milder can lead to wonderful aromas. It all depends of course on the goal - if you're making a proper APA, then Cascade grassiness is almost always to be expected and looked forward to.

NS hops are lets say heavy in the front of the palate and rich in aroma. I would be looking at no more than .75gm to the ltr for dry hopping. Considering you have already late hopped, back it off to .5 of a gm per ltr. Nelson is a lot like Galaxy when used right its delicious, when overdone drinkers are looking for the spitoon. Good luck with it.

NS gets treated pretty badly. I make my own version of Katie's Planet of the Grapes with Galaxy and NS all the way, then dry hopped at 1-2 g/L and it's in no way grassy, just a kick-in-the-face of fruit. Keep in mind though, a balanced bitterness/maltiness and correct water additions will help keep things in control. The PoTG recipe uses a simple base malt with acidulated malt to keep the flavour well-rounded and hop-forward. A huge malt bill with the same hopping would lead to overwhelmed flavours and a less complex beer.

I think the theory is if you put the hops in at the start of fermenting the CO2 will drive some off the aroma off, if you add hops when cold chilling then you should maximize the hop aroma

Not so sure it's when cold-chilling. I add mine before that point (three-quarters through ferment, with a few days warm at the tail end) - I suspect the extraction of oils has a temperature dependence.

 

[haysie]

@QB Whats the difference between the OP adding at primary or flameout? All those flameout hops I add for nothing?
@QB You may say their not grassy because of bias, they sound awfully horribly fruity to me at those additions.
@QB why would acidulated malt keep the things balanced or how you describe it? Maybe a PH thing and WA water? Acidulated malt is such a wank, cleans the cavities of your teeth they tell me.

 

[jonocarroll]

@QB Whats the difference between the OP adding at primary or flameout?

Well, if he's chilling, not much - maybe an hour? What's your point?

All those flameout hops I add for nothing?

Possibly. Are you trying to get a big aroma hit or are you blending it with some flavour? Do you want the oils to be fresh at bottling or to have settled out into the trub? CO₂ won't eradicate the 0 minute aroma addition, so it's not pointless. If it's a bit hit you're after, then drop the 0 minute and put it in later as a dry hop.

@QB You may say their they're not grassy because of bias, they sound awfully horribly fruity to me at those additions.

Grassy /= Fruity. Sound and taste are two different things. Don't go assuming something is so because you think it sounds so... now THAT'S bias. My comment stems from my own; judges'; and fellow brewers' tasting remarks of a heavily hopped brew *I* have made, not assumption. Cascade gets grassy, my beer is nowhere near as such. Yes, the beer I mentioned is fruity... It's not like I hid that fact in the statement "a kick-in-the-face of fruit", now, did I?

@QB why would acidulated malt keep the things balanced or how you describe it? Maybe a PH thing and WA water? Acidulated malt is such a wank, cleans the cavities of your teeth they tell me.

Promotes well-rounded, complex beer flavor.

I find it helps to round out the hop flavours a bit. Somewhat like a pinch of salt will do to an IPA. In this case it's a pH thing - if you think that the pH of your beer is a load of wank, good for you, I'm off to make GOOD beer.

@haysie - you takin' the piss or just trying to sound difficult?

 

[speedie]

Ok dudes have just come back from workshop/brewery and would like to say that there was a wonderful smell coming from the fermenters herbaceous to say the least

The ferment hopped vessel had the most aromas but the other one was still really pleasant to smell

So lets give some thought to the old hop back and it purpose in the brewing chain

It adds another filter to the process it lets the hot wort sterilize the hops it passes oils and aroma to the brew

So if I have ferment hopped the only significant difference is nonstirilised hop and the actual hop structure (fibre) itself going into my brew

As far as high alpha acid hop giving the grassy flavour I would be hesitant to go there as good old POR is high in acid but grassy?

Let s talk

speedie

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Heat

That's the difference. Heat fundamentally and drastically alters the characteristics of the aroma bearing compounds that make it into your brew. Both in which ones make it to the fermenter, and by the actual chemical structure of the compounds being changed by the heat.

A flameout hop addition is simply not the same sort of aroma as a dry hop, a hopback is a weird hybrid of the two and I can only assume a ferment hop will be different again to all three. Why would they be the same?

How much difference and whether you like it better or not, that's where this comparison's results will be interesting. Well, I'll find it interesting anyway.

 

[ekul]

This is a little off topic but i have been thinking about this for a week and it sort of relates to this topic.

If i make, say, a golden ale and it is dry hopped. And then i pitch another beer directly onto the yeast cake. Will i get vegetative flavours from the hops that are sitting in the cake, because they have been sitting there the entire fermentation for the second beer?

Sorry if this is too off topic

 

[speedie]

TB think about what you stated with heat being the difference in relation to the two concepts

If this has any bearing on yield I would be again hesitant to put my balls on the line but give some thought to what is going on in the boil (heat)



Some more thought on this is ISO stuff sort of out of HB realms though



The hop back concept may have given rise to your APA beers Serria Nevada may well have pioneered this adaption to brewing



And thats what makes this hobby habit so interesting isnt it

Sort of evolving ideas on different concepts!

 

[Thirsty Boy]

This is a little off topic but i have been thinking about this for a week and it sort of relates to this topic.

If i make, say, a golden ale and it is dry hopped. And then i pitch another beer directly onto the yeast cake. Will i get vegetative flavours from the hops that are sitting in the cake, because they have been sitting there the entire fermentation for the second beer?

Sorry if this is too off topic

Can't say for certain that you would - But IMO you are certainly asking for it.

Give you yeast a bit of a wash and re-pitch nice clean stuff instead... Then you know for certain it isn't going to be a problem. Why wonder if it's going to be an issue, when for the want of half an hours effort you can make sure.

 

[speedie]

tb what the phuck was that all about

 

[hirns]

tb what the phuck was that all about

Well Speedie, he was simply responding to ekul's post and not yours!



Hirns

 

[speedie]

Qb I give the utmost respect to PH (potential hydrogens) in the course of brewing my beer

I purchased a $600 temperature corrected meter to get and monitor control of PH

There is probably a paper on hop infusion and PH levels somewhere!

As far as judges comments go lets leave it there!

 

[Thirsty Boy]

TB think about what you stated with heat being the difference in relation to the two concepts

If this has any bearing on yield I would be again hesitant to put my balls on the line but give some thought to what is going on in the boil (heat)



Some more thought on this is ISO stuff sort of out of HB realms though



The hop back concept may have given rise to your APA beers Serria Nevada may well have pioneered this adaption to brewing



And thats what makes this hobby habit so interesting isnt it

Sort of evolving ideas on different concepts!

I'm not 100% certain what you mean. But I will try to clarify.

I am not talking in any way about bitterness or ibu yield. That's a separate issue. But the aroma bearing compounds of hops are, absolutely, there is no debate in any of the brewing science - affected by heat. The hydrocarbon fraction, which is the dominant fraction you obtain from dry hopping, is to a huge extent, removed by volatilization within moments of hops being put into boiling wort... The stuff that isn't driven off is to a large extent changed by heat and heat driven oxidation in hot wort. The non hydrocarbon fraction of the hop oils, is also, but to a lesser extent driven off in a boil and changed by heat.

The traditional fine/noble aroma associated with german lagers and other late hopped beers, are primarily from the oxygen bearing portion of the aroma compounds, which is able to stand the heat. Ergo the reason that you still get a subtle, but long lasting and very fine aroma, from adding noble hops even at 60mins.

Very late hopping, as in whirlpool hops/flameout hops... Still lose almost all their hydrocarbon fraction - but a bit survives, and a lot more of the oxgen bearing fraction not only survives, but is unchanged by the heat, than if the hops had been boiled for any length of time. So a less subtle and smooth aroma, but stronger.

In a hopback (and hop backs have been being used for a very long time, so it's hardly a development of modern US brewing) the hops have a very, very short contact time with hot wort, so only a very small amount of
volatiles are lost, but enough are, and there is enough contact with heat to drive off and change some of the harsher more grassy astringent compounds... Then it's all cooled down fast in a heat ex. Even less subtle and stronger again. You get a big whack of aroma out of hop back beers... Hop backs are the best of both worlds if you are looking for sheer volume of aroma... I think even more so than dry hop. If what you want is big aroma, go a hopback.

Dry hopping slowly dissolves/diffuses out all the aroma compounds in the hops... But you are talking hops that have never been exposed to high temperatures.... So the actual chemicals in there are at least a little different too. Many of the compounds aren't all that soluble in cold wort and never make it into solution. But, you do get to retain, unchanged and un volitalised, all the hydrocarbon fraction. So you keep all your myrcene and caraphylene and fanescene etc etc. And they are punchy enough so they tend to dominate. But you also keep a lot of the harsher, more unpleasant compounds too, so it can be easy to overdo dry hopping and lose the good in the bad.

Hell, there was another thread recently about warming your hops up, where a German trained brewer though that hops straight out of the freezer should be allowed to warm up to room temp before use to allow volatiles to escape, cause they are bad .... Or you could do the opposite like an american IPa brewer and work your arse off to pile in as many as you can and keep every last bit.... Cause they are so good.

What sort of organoleptic experience you are looking for, should dictate where you apply your hops. If you just want more hop aroma - use more hops at the place you usually do. If you want a different character of hop aroma, then you look at technique. But if you think you can replace a late boil hop with a dry hop and it's going to be the same thing... Well - it isn't. Or you can just go wild and put em in everywhere - and that has it's charm too.

So, like i said, I wasn't really sure about the point you were making/question you were asking... But that's what I have learned about how hops work from an aroma perspective. Hopefully I have cleared up anything I didn't express clearly before.

TB

 

[hirns]

Popcorn anyone?

Hirns

 

[hirns]

If you re-read the thread I'll guess that he mixed up QB's and TB's responses and statements.

Popcorn?

Hirns

 

[rotten]

Does anyone have shares in a popcorn factory I can purchase. I have a feeling price may rise.

 

[Brewindo]

Qb I give the utmost respect to PH (potential hydrogen's) in the course of brewing my beer

I purchased a $600 temperature corrected meter to get and monitor control of PH

There is probably a paper on hop infusion and PH levels somewhere!

As far as judges comments go lets leave it there!

Dude, your an angry drunk. Too many Sunday arvo drinkie poo's for you.

It is dickheads like you that make sites like this unatractive to the average bloke trying to pursue a hobbie. You get very technical then bleed angry dribble, WTF

I, for one, am sick of reading your shit. So proud of your smarts. Dumb ****.

Cheers All,

Tommy