Dedicated Herms Guide, Problems And Solution Thread

[RustyT]

Yeah I will have to get a step. Hopefully wont need to be up there to much after mash in.

 

[TheWiggman]

Had my first proper stuck sparge yesterday, which resulted in comical results overall.

• Mash in at 70°C, dropped to 65°C (perfect)
• Turned on recirc 5-10 mins later.
• Walked away satisfied. Returned to find dribble out of recirculating line. Turned off pump, stirred around braid, eased pump back on. Grain temp ~61°C.
• As above for 72 and mash-out rest.

No matter what I did the recirc would block up and a dribble would come out at the best of times. It'd be lucky to be a litre/min. I went to fly sparge and it opened the drain valve 100%. After about half an hour there would have been lucky to be 200ml in the kettle.
What ensued was a lot of hose swapping, swear words and pumping from the drain to the kettle. I batch sparged. Efficiency went down and ended up with about 3 fewer litres 3 points below SG.

This whole time I was doing a lot of thinking as it's never been this bad. Then I realised: I milled some of the grains twice and thought nothing of it. My daughter of 3 'helped out' with the milling. I let her go for a few minutes then turned around to find she was running the mill backwards. A LOT of uncracked grain went through and mixed with the cracked grain. I put it all back in the hopper and went for round 2.
This pic of the MT following sparge tells the story -



Sludgey, fine flour all through it. No matter how much I stirred it didn't seem to settle very hard, but just wouldn't allow a decent recirc. Very frustrating. Hopefully the beer will turn out ok because temp control was horrible.

Lesson learnt: keep girls out of the brewery.

 

[SmallFry]

Hint. Always keep a couple of handfuls of rice hulls handy. Would have cleared that right up. Also,I mash at a water:grist ratio of 3:1 minimum.

 

[Yob]

weird as it is, and it's a bit of a legacy from my old system.. but I use a sheet of voile over my manifold.. only the finest of particulate can make it through and Ive never suffered a stuck sparge.. also agree that a min. 3L/kg is a good ratio

The voile also ensures that the manifold is so incredibly easy to clean and the pump cannot get grain stuck in it.. though I no longer use the LBP that this was for (now a march with a chugger inline head) I find no reason to change.

so I guess my system is a 4VHBIAB?

What sort of pump are you running Wiggman?

 

[TheWiggman]

3l/kg was exactly the ratio I used. The mash wasn't very thick, but it'd pump a few hundred ml and block up each time.
I used the O.B.S. sparge braid so I think the very fine stuff clogged it up quick-smart and wouldn't be as much of an issue with a false bottom.

Pump is green poly pump from Craftbrewer / Kaixin. A bigger pump would be nice, but so would money.

 

[dent]

I don't think the double crush is necessarily to blame. By the time your mash has finished, the parts of your grist that you overcrushed into flour should be mostly gone into solution. There's always going to be some fine insoluble particles, but the fact that they've deposited as a layer on the top of your mash isn't very significant -- it has more to do with the flow movement of your recirc/sparge than anything else.

I do find the worst thing you can do on a HERMS rig is stir the mash while the pump is running. For whatever reason, it ensures that the bits of grain wedge in whatever manifold/braid you're using and jams it up quick smart. I get tempted now and then, and EVERY TIME it jams it up.

If you get stuck, it is better to get your hose and pump some water backwards through the system to flush out your manifold/braid, which pushes the grain bits away enough to get it going again. Even with just cold water is fine.

Start the flow at a minimum level - ie turn the pump on with the output valve shut. Then open it up enough to get your minimum flow required. Never run it flat out such that the flow is limited by the intake allowed by your manifold/braid.

I use the same OBS braid, stick with it, it is great stuff. A false bottom can be just as problematic.

 

[mofox1]

Sounds like a long day Wiggman...

A good way to clear the braid is to flush a few litres of hot water (at full bore) back up the mash tun outlet, ie - back into the braid. Give it a good stir while doing so, then re-plumb and recirc a few litres before continuing with the sparge. Depending on when you get stuck, you may want to continue fly sparging, or give up and go for batch... If I'm batch sparging I'll sometimes just fill the whole batch from the bottom.

Anyways, worked for me when I did a high % wheat, and I'm using a braid too. YMMV.


But yeah - rice hulls work a treat too... certainly saved the mucking around the next time.

 

[TheWiggman]

Did all that sorry gents, ended up back at square 1. Only think I haven't used is rice hulls. Never had this problem before too I might add.
I've also used a high wheat % before (50%) with no issues.

ED: realised I didn't include all details to avoid TL;DR. Here are the basic methods used -

1. Pump off, stirred around braid, cleared as much as possible. Turned on pump, cracked 'til flow. Increased flow slightly after 1 min. Opened 80%. Came back after 20 mins, dribbling.
2. As above but 45%. Same result after 2-3 mins
3. As above but waited 2 mins before turning on pump.
4. Losing patience with children
5. Blew liquid back through braid (1-2l). Cracked 'til flow, left at 30%. Flow dropped off.
6. Raised braid out and checked. Nothing untoward. Scraped out bottom of MT, pushed brain back in gently then cleared again. No improvement.
7. Kicked the dog
8. Blew liquid back again, no improvement.
9. Left valve open 100% after clearing, same result.
10. On occasions, also had to clear some air that was caught in the pump from the suction hose (take my word for it when I say that air in the pump was not causing my problems, but this didn't help the matter)

Basically tried as many times as possible and the result was always that once a few hundred ml would go through (be it just dribbling or opened up all the way) the suction would be restricted and flow would drop off.
I also recirced for the batch sparge to ensure the wort was clear for the sparge and this seemed to work a lot better.

I might open up the pump and make sure everything's good in there for the sake of it. It doesn't seem to be flowing as much as it used to but it could be all in my head.

 

[dent]

I don't particularly see how milling it twice is going to make the particles substantially smaller - assuming you have a normal roller type mill.

 

[Sambrew]

Gday all, lots to catch up on in this thread! Just wondering what sort of (KW) element everyone is using in their setups as i have just decided to upgrade. Got a flattened stainless steel coil from a temprite in a CUB keg with a 2.8KW element at the moment and it doesn't heat particularly quickly, but the difference in water to beer out of the coil is at very worst 1.5 degrees. I've found a 4KW stainless 220V element but was wondering if anyone had run in to trouble overheating their mash with this size element. I Run a basic (Chinese) PID i got off ebay for $16 a few years ago- does ok. Any Ideas, comments or pearls of wisdom would be appreciated.

 

[Yob]

Have you got a circuit to run that element?

 

[Sambrew]

All the specs say it should run as my 2.8kw element does, doesn't draw too much more - if need be i'll set up a relay circuit. Just got buyers regret after thinking it may be too much element.

 

[dent]

I reckon if you think a relay will solve the difference between the current consumption requirements of a 4kW element vs a 2.8kW element, you shouldn't be involved in the wiring of either one.

 

[Sambrew]

10amps 220v which -will run on 240v... whats the hassle?

 

[fraser_john]

I reckon if you think a relay will solve the difference between the current consumption requirements of a 4kW element vs a 2.8kW element, you shouldn't be involved in the wiring of either one.

Spot on dent...

Sambrew,

P=V*I
2.8kW = 2800 watts
2800 = 240*I
I =11.67 amps, most house circuits are limited to 10amps, though will carry up to 15 depending on the circuit breaker.

4kW = 4000 watts
4000 = 240*I
I = 16.67 amps, you are going to need a dedicated 15 or 20 amp circuit to power that sucker!

I ran 5500 watt elements and 4500 watt elements for years in both my RIMS and my HERMS. I had dedicated 20amp outlets in the shed. I just built a new house and failed to spec that bit out so I now only run 2200W elements and though ramp times are somewhat slower, I can still get a brew done in just 4 hours.

 

[mb-squared]

ah, fraser-john beat me to it. yep,

watts = volts * amps

4000 watts/240V = 16.7 amps, which in practice means 20amps. do you have a 20amp circuit?

 

[Sambrew]

ramp times are what I'm trying to achieve- i don't mash out, i sparge with water from HE. was trying to include a mash out and a step mash at some stage in the not too distant future. I'll have to look at the wiring - there is a three phase outlet in the shed, and I might make a call to my sparky mate who will work for beer...

 

[Sambrew]

not that i'd be using three phase in the brewery.

 

[dent]

Hopefully your mate will set you straight - you'd actually be much better off using the three phase with the appropriate element. It is much more likely your existing wiring will be able to handle it, and you can get more power besides - you can get 7kW with only 10A that way.

 

[mxd]

Did all that sorry gents, ended up back at square 1. Only think I haven't used is rice hulls. Never had this problem before too I might add.
I've also used a high wheat % before (50%) with no issues.

ED: realised I didn't include all details to avoid TL;DR. Here are the basic methods used -

1. Pump off, stirred around braid, cleared as much as possible. Turned on pump, cracked 'til flow. Increased flow slightly after 1 min. Opened 80%. Came back after 20 mins, dribbling.
2. As above but 45%. Same result after 2-3 mins
3. As above but waited 2 mins before turning on pump.
4. Losing patience with children
5. Blew liquid back through braid (1-2l). Cracked 'til flow, left at 30%. Flow dropped off.
6. Raised braid out and checked. Nothing untoward. Scraped out bottom of MT, pushed brain back in gently then cleared again. No improvement.
7. Kicked the dog
8. Blew liquid back again, no improvement.
9. Left valve open 100% after clearing, same result.
10. On occasions, also had to clear some air that was caught in the pump from the suction hose (take my word for it when I say that air in the pump was not causing my problems, but this didn't help the matter)

Basically tried as many times as possible and the result was always that once a few hundred ml would go through (be it just dribbling or opened up all the way) the suction would be restricted and flow would drop off.
I also recirced for the batch sparge to ensure the wort was clear for the sparge and this seemed to work a lot better.

I might open up the pump and make sure everything's good in there for the sake of it. It doesn't seem to be flowing as much as it used to but it could be all in my head.

I've only had 1 stuck sparge (it was a couple of weeks ago, it occurred on a barley wine after I gave it a stir) what I did was run water (tap at pressure) backwards through the pump into the MLT outlet, so that cleared the muck and all was good again.