Dedicated Herms Guide, Problems And Solution Thread

[neal32]

Hi fellas

I am currently planning a 3v herms system, based on the electric brewery. Main differences I will just have the 1 PID for mash temp control, and I'm going to use my mongolian burner on the boil kettle.

My query is this - The electric brewery has their RTD on the mash tun suction ball valve, I was considering moving this to the HLT Hex discharge, that way the element in the kettle is working directly to maintain mash temp - it will see that the mash temp is low and heat the HLT accordingly instead of perhaps having a differential between HLT temp and the returning wort. It will also mean that the returning wort has less opportunity to cool before re-entering the MT.

Am I missing something here?

Nope. That's how I have mine setup, with the probe on the outlet of the HEX coil. I also run the recirculation flat out with a March AC-3CP-MD and the temperature at the mash return is exactly the same as the PID. Measured with a Thermopen I recommend the Auber PID's and the good probes they have. I run a Blichmann burner instead of an electric boil, wouldn't change anything about my setup.

 

[gava]

I've also had a rig working the same with the probe on the herms out which worked fine, I'd recommend a hand held digital temp gauge to check your mash just to double check your mash is the same. If it is then your good to go, if not you'll have to adjust your herms set point to allow for the lost of temp, better double check than assume it's the same.

Gav

 

[mb-squared]

Hi fellas

I am currently planning a 3v herms system, based on the electric brewery. Main differences I will just have the 1 PID for mash temp control, and I'm going to use my mongolian burner on the boil kettle.

My query is this - The electric brewery has their RTD on the mash tun suction ball valve, I was considering moving this to the HLT Hex discharge, that way the element in the kettle is working directly to maintain mash temp - it will see that the mash temp is low and heat the HLT accordingly instead of perhaps having a differential between HLT temp and the returning wort. It will also mean that the returning wort has less opportunity to cool before re-entering the MT.

Am I missing something here?

Just to clarify, the Electric Brewery has RTDs in the bottom "out" ball valves of the MT and HLT. But it is the RTD on the HLT that governs the heating element. This is the hottest point in the system during the mash. Assuming you are getting less than 100% heat exchange through the HERMS coil in the HLT, then measuring the temp at the HERMS out will give you a slightly lower reading than the temp of the HLT. That means that your element (or burner if you are like me) will run a bit longer, heating your HLT up beyond the target temp, which will eventually translate into overshoots in the MT temps.

I have a gas version of the electric brewery and I have found through much trial and error that Kal has it right. Temp probes put anywhere else tend to produce temp overshoots in my experience.

 

[gava]

Just to clarify, the Electric Brewery has RTDs in the bottom "out" ball valves of the MT and HLT. But it is the RTD on the HLT that governs the heating element. This is the hottest point in the system during the mash. Assuming you are getting less than 100% heat exchange through the HERMS coil in the HLT, then measuring the temp at the HERMS out will give you a slightly lower reading than the temp of the HLT. That means that your element (or burner if you are like me) will run a bit longer, heating your HLT up beyond the target temp, which will eventually translate into overshoots in the MT temps.

I have a gas version of the electric brewery and I have found through much trial and error that Kal has it right. Temp probes put anywhere else tend to produce temp overshoots in my experience.

You are correct, How I read what he said above was they had a "HERMS" standalone pot not a herms coil in the HLT (was early, damn day light savings and a 1 year old gettup up at 4am)
I have tested with using the MLT probe to set my HLT temp which produces overshooting even after tuning my pids. Much easier to keep it the same way as Kal in this configuration.

I currently have my MLT probe in the front of the pot which ONLY displays my temp, it doesn't control anything to do with it, the HLT pid controls the HLT temp which in turn controls my MASH via the HERMS coil within the pot. Once you dial in your rig this works pretty well. Saying that I do miss my stand alone HERMS pot, I've wired my control panel for easy integration in the future but for now this works.

-Gav

 

[mb-squared]

Hey Gav, with you on the time change and kids waking up.

Yep, Kal's MT PID is just so he can see the temp of the MT. It doesn't actually do anything. Overkill in my mind, but it does make for a beautiful control panel

 

[gava]

Hey Gav, with you on the time change and kids waking up.

Yep, Kal's MT PID is just so he can see the temp of the MT. It doesn't actually do anything. Overkill in my mind, but it does make for a beautiful control panel

I was going to use a temp gauge in the front of the pot but it doesn't have the 'bling' factor , I had to go the PID route plus easier to see the temp and I'm all about making it easier for myself.
If I didn't sell my other rig and have the budget my control panel would look a lot different I'd say.

 

[Rieewoldt]

Sorry guys if my wording was confusing (night shifts!). The coil will be in Hlt. As thus.
Hopefully IT makes more sense

 

[mb-squared]

Yep, looks good to me, but I'd move that RTD down to the HLT-out valve.

 

[Rieewoldt]

Yep, looks good to me, but I'd move that RTD down to the HLT-out valve.

Thanks mate, I was just thinking that having it where it is would have the element work directly to maintain the mash temp, instead of the water in which the mash recirculates.

What have you found to be the benefits of having it at bottom of hlt

 

[TheWiggman]

Just to clarify, the Electric Brewery has RTDs in the bottom "out" ball valves of the MT and HLT. But it is the RTD on the HLT that governs the heating element. This is the hottest point in the system during the mash. Assuming you are getting less than 100% heat exchange through the HERMS coil in the HLT, then measuring the temp at the HERMS out will give you a slightly lower reading than the temp of the HLT. That means that your element (or burner if you are like me) will run a bit longer, heating your HLT up beyond the target temp, which will eventually translate into overshoots in the MT temps.

I have a gas version of the electric brewery and I have found through much trial and error that Kal has it right. Temp probes put anywhere else tend to produce temp overshoots in my experience.

I don't think this is entirely the case. It all depends on how it you have your PID set up. If you're measuring HERMS out then the PID will control the temp of the HLT so it is slightly higher than or the same as the wort, and hopefully stabilise there. Saying it will heat up and overshoot is not correct; if it's PID controlled, then the parameters need to be set to suit the system and you can certainly avoid overshoot. Obviously things like ramp times may have to be sacrificed.
For reference, I look at one temp in my system - HERMS out. The element is controlled to achieve this, and I'm not bothered by other temps. I have another PID for the HLT which I turn on prior to sparging.

 

[mb-squared]

What have you found to be the benefits of having it at bottom of hlt

please see my post above: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/41110-dedicated-herms-guide-problems-and-solution-thread/page-53#entry1159515

along with Gav's post immediately below that one.

 

[Rieewoldt]

please see my post above: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/41110-dedicated-herms-guide-problems-and-solution-thread/page-53#entry1159515

along with Gav's post immediately below that one.

All good mate, thanks for the advices. Think I'll trial a few different options, thanks mate.

 

[mb-squared]

I don't think this is entirely the case. It all depends on how it you have your PID set up. If you're measuring HERMS out then the PID will control the temp of the HLT so it is slightly higher than or the same as the wort, and hopefully stabilise there. Saying it will heat up and overshoot is not correct; if it's PID controlled, then the parameters need to be set to suit the system and you can certainly avoid overshoot. Obviously things like ramp times may have to be sacrificed.

Hi Wiggman, I don't use a PID, so I'm in no position to agree or disagree with you. But Gav uses a PID and he seems to agree that Kal has got it figured out. Of course, ultimately, I don't think it matters that much where you put your probe. so long as you're consistent and tune your system accordingly.

 

[gava]

From what I've found with the Electric brewery probe placement...

Trying to use your MLT temp to control your HLT (Herms) results in overshooting.. Since the grain bed lags behind the ramp speed temp of your HLT you WILL see over shooting. I guess you could tune your PID for slow ramp speed which will approach the temperature and should not over shoot but I'd rather a quicker RAMP Speed for the sake of moving one probe.

I can't comment on reading the temp directly from the HERMS out point to control the temp since I have not tried this. In my mind that's pretty much that same as reading your HLT temperature if your exchange is in good working order give or take.. It's all about tuning your system to get the end result.

BUT as for reading your MLT temp to control your HLT in the configuration of the HERM Coil in the HLT I don't recommend, Due to the fact that your RAMP speed would have to be slow to not overshoot.. although I could be missing something..

-Gav

 

[TheWiggman]

Hi Wiggman, I don't use a PID, so I'm in no position to agree or disagree with you. But Gav uses a PID and he seems to agree that Kal has got it figured out. Of course, ultimately, I don't think it matters that much where you put your probe. so long as you're consistent and tune your system accordingly.

No PID? Altogether different. As gav said below you, once you understand the system you will know how to achieve temps.

 

[Eddiejoes]

Hi Guys,

Have my controller components on the way and am a bit concerned about what happens once I get it wired up and then plug it in. I have two (of the hopefully not so notorious newer keg king) 2200w electric elements which I was hoping to run through a controller with my 2 auber pids to control my HLT and HERMS unit (Nev's HERM-IT). As I don't have an outside power socket I had been planning on running an extension from the kitchen and plugging it into that but I've been advised that I'll trip a standard domestic circuit. I've been offered the following of solutions but as I'm clueless when it comes to all things electrical I need help.

1. Run a dedicated 230v 32a to an outdoor socket and use that
2. Build 2 separate controllers and run 2 extension cables from the house using different circuits to power one each
3. Build 2 separate controllers and have 2 dedicated 230v 10a installed outside one for each

Be gentle

 

[dent]

If you ask Nev, he can build you the secret deluxe controller which has two PID controlled outputs. This can run your HERMS HX and HLT at once. It can do this by running the HLT when the HX is not running. There is also an adjustable overload margin.

This way you can run both from the one 10A outlet.

Otherwise you can emulate the same thing with standalone PID units along with some extra relays.

 

[gava]

Save the head ache run a 32amp circuit. I've got one 20amp and two 10amps and its a head ache.. cost to get a 40amp now I $550.. do it probably first go..

 

[QldKev]

Hi Guys,

Have my controller components on the way and am a bit concerned about what happens once I get it wired up and then plug it in. I have two (of the hopefully not so notorious newer keg king) 2200w electric elements which I was hoping to run through a controller with my 2 auber pids to control my HLT and HERMS unit (Nev's HERM-IT). As I don't have an outside power socket I had been planning on running an extension from the kitchen and plugging it into that but I've been advised that I'll trip a standard domestic circuit. I've been offered the following of solutions but as I'm clueless when it comes to all things electrical I need help.

1. Run a dedicated 230v 32a to an outdoor socket and use that
2. Build 2 separate controllers and run 2 extension cables from the house using different circuits to power one each
3. Build 2 separate controllers and have 2 dedicated 230v 10a installed outside one for each

Be gentle

I see a huge issue "I have two (of the hopefully not so notorious newer keg king) 2200w electric elements" I purchased 2, and within 2 weeks the first one went bang with a blue flame out the side and smoke. 6 weeks later the second one went the same way. I'm never buying anything from them again, IMHO they are the worse supplier to buy anything.

To answer your question,
Have you seen my and Truman's controller build. We wanted to keep to a maximum of 10amp per circuit to allow moving etc without heaps of house wiring. My control panel has 4 x 10amp feeds.

 

[dent]

Have you seen my and Truman's controller build.

Got a link to the wiring?